6moons review - Headroom Maxxed out Desktop

[n_maher]

I'm curious about the external powersupply. It can run 6 different amps? Why would you need that? Would it be possible to make a less expensive version that, say, only powers one?

I think a smaller Desktop PS is in the works. While it can run 6 amps at once a single-unit version isn't going to cost that much less.

Nate

[Tyll Hertsens]

Actually, there was just room for that many connections and we have VERY long range planes to make things that stack (think FM tuner and Hard drive player, but long range--years.

[TheSloth]

The only question is whether i spill the beans on the new headroom 2006 module, or let Tyll do the

introductions... " **** are a girls best friends"

Aren't you a naughty boy Mr. Gilmore... . And I'm feeling extremely pleased with myself for actually understanding your hint! What progress I've made in 6 months!

[Dusty Chalk]

Actually, there was just room for that many connections and we have VERY long range planes to make things that stack (think FM tuner and Hard drive player, but long range--years.

You should also be thinking about either HD radio or XM or Sirius or satellite or possibly just internet radio...

[tkam]

I still think headroom should release the max dac as a standalone dac at some point

[grawk]

That'd eat a huge percentage of the market for those amps

[n_maher]

I still think headroom should release the max dac as a standalone dac at some point

I think you'd be shocked to learn how little less the stand-alone Max DAC would likely cost. At the last Boston Meet I cornered Tyll for a while and chatted about stuff like this and he offered what I thought was a pretty reasonable explanation of why things are the way they are and why they are likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future.

Nate

[grawk]

Still, a good dac is a valuable thing, and having the option of fewer things in the signal path if you want to use a different amp seems helpful.

[TheSloth]

I'm not sure how much difference it would make to the signal path. From what I've seen of DAC's with opamps in the output stages, they still have some kind of buffer even for the line stage. Therefore in the example of a Max Dac with Max Module, if the DAC was standalone, all you would be doing is exchanging 2 class A 627's with low gain for 1 class A 627 with high gain. Otherwise it would be the same machine - it would need a chassis, connectors, main board, power supply and all the same things that are already required for the amp. With this particular design, I don't see a large difference between the Max DAC - Max Module combination and a standalone DAC, and the cost savings would be minimal. Also, though I think the Max DAC is fantastic for the price, I'm not sure that it's fundamentally superior to the $1k competition like the Lavry, and so in a discrete box, it would have to come in at that price point.

[devwild]

I think you'd be shocked to learn how little less the stand-alone Max DAC would likely cost. At the last Boston Meet I cornered Tyll for a while and chatted about stuff like this and he offered what I thought was a pretty reasonable explanation of why things are the way they are and why they are likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future.

Add some low cost additional features like more switchable ins and outs that make it a more versatile device, and I honestly don't think anyone in the market for such a DAC would care. I wouldn't. Headroom amps don't sound good with my equipment, but I would be glad to support them in buying a good dac I could use with a multitude of gear.

I understand that Tyll wants to sell his amps, but to my point of view, with the online crowd at least, that's not how the market seems to work. People buy the bits that sound good. Since the Headroom amps don't work for me I currently have little interest in his products beyond the microdac I have (and possibly the micro switch once it finally comes out). I also think a stationary DAC would be a great entry product to the Headroom line for a lot of general audiophiles.

I know Tyll has already debated this a lot and there's no point in arguing, but I can't help but be disappointed. I desperately want to see more good options in the dac world. The microdac was a baby step in the right direction in my mind.

[Tyll Hertsens]

I've actually tried to argue for it recently as a short term way to some incremental sales. But bottome line we can't afford to increase the inventory at the moment. It's a tough call. I think the odds have actually gone up recently of a stand alone DAC but they are still long. A DeskTop Balanced Amp is also a modest likelyhood. The most likely thing over the next 18 months is a tube amp, and even that's a bit of a long shot. As I said in the AirHead paid thread, we're working on a low cost line for two years or so from now and we're going to have to save a lot of buckies to pay for tooling up for 3 or 4 sexy plastic enclosures. Consequently we are not going to be doing anything that doesn't pay for itself quickly, however, of the three optional products mentioned above a DAC may have the fastest payback.

[Tyll Hertsens]

BTW, this is probably a good place to mention it as it is specifically related to the OP. As Recstar24 so legitimately pointed out our amps really haven't quite kept up with the state-of-the-art solid-state crowd. The current module was first designed over two years ago, and times have changed. We've gained some ground in the DAC area, and in the over-all looks, but we have been dissapointed with the amp electronics...bottom line the HA5002 just didn't cut it in the balls department. So we've been doing some work on modules over the last year and have found something we really like. It did seen a little early to revamp the module so we decided we were going to wait to introduce the module until Stereophile or some other magazine realized that you have to measure headphone amps into 20 ohm loads to get a good feel for how the amp would work with dynamics and low impedance cans. Well, guess what?! JA decided that he needed to measure down to 50 ohms on our DeskTop Amp. If you look at the Stereophile data you can see that the HA5002 doesn't measure---or sound---great below 100. The result is slightly less snappy articulation and cleanliness of sound as you might hear on the current state-of-the-art crop of headphone amps; and probably results in Recstar24s (an others) less than enthusiastic impression of the outright performance of our amps.

So, currently all Micro, Desktop, and Home modules shipped are the new design; Max modules will be shipping by the end of next week. The new design is essentially the same in the input buffer and crossfeed implementation, but the output amp is our own spin on the Diamond Buffer design. They sound SICKLY good. You can ask Sloth, he's been listening to them for about a month.

[tkam]

Very cool news Tyll, based on my previous experience with amps going from the interstil buffers to diamond buffers the improvements should be rather dramatic. And I'll keep hoping for a standalone version of the Max Dac

[TheSloth]

Finally, it looks like I'm allowed to talk! It is a big improvement, especially with the K701. I have an detailed update for my module archive that I'll add when they are officially announced. I've actually only heard the Micro and Desktop modules so far, and with my K701's I now enjoy the Desktop '06 more than the Home '05. As was pointed out already though, the difference becomes more dramatic the lower the impedence, and my 650's see the smallest change from this update (though I still find the sound a little cleaner with those too).

[devwild]

Thanks a bunch for the info Tyll, I know you're like the rest of us... if we only had the money we could do whatever we want.

[Tyll Hertsens]

Finally, it looks like I'm allowed to talk!

Sure, here. About a week we'll officially announce it, but I don't mind if you guys play a few mind games "over there", just nothing official yet.

And, boy, this is pretty wierd, having this other...underground forum. Pretty wierd.

[devwild]

As was pointed out already though, the difference becomes more dramatic the lower the impedence, and my 650's see the smallest change from this update (though I still find the sound a little cleaner with those too).

Hmm, now that is interesting, seeing as all my headphones tend to be lower impedence. I would be very curious to hear how the new desktop module compares to the Aria.

[n_maher]

The most likely thing over the next 18 months is a tube amp, and even that's a bit of a long shot.

Oh dear... is my friend Pete involved?

And, boy, this is pretty wierd, having this other...underground forum. Pretty wierd.

Muaaaahahahaha, MUUUAAHAHAHHAHA!

[TheSloth]

Hmm, now that is interesting, seeing as all my headphones tend to be lower impedence. I would be very curious to hear how the new desktop module compares to the Aria.

Well the output buffer itself yields the improvement with low impedence headphones. Going down from 100ohms things really start to improve quite dramatically to my ears. It's night and day to my ears with my Ety. 4p's at 27ohms, and a small clean up for the 300ohm sennheisers. However, the output buffer allows the higher end modules to be deeper into class A bias, so the Home Module '06's output buffer is deeper into class A than the Home '05's, which will yield improvements for all impedences. I believe the Max '06 is even deeper into class A than that, and has a different and better output transistor pair, but don't quote me on it.

[Tyll Hertsens]

Oh dear... is my friend Pete involved?

Well, we'd probably do an HA2 type amp first, and them a 300B. And Pete would be involved either way.

[Tyll Hertsens]

I believe the Max '06 is even deeper into class A than that, and has a different and better output transistor pair, but don't quote me on it.

Ha ha ha ha ha! I quoted you on that. And you're right. And I'll let you guys know what transistors we're using but I think the DIYers will recognize them. They do sound amazingly good though.

[n_maher]

Well, speaking from the perspective of someone who has rolled Diamond Buffers into several different amps that previously used chip buffers the difference has been the same each time. Better, more refined sonics at all frequency levels with the most pronounced coming at the lower end with cleaner, tighter bass that has better extension. Can't wait to hear your version Tyll!

And as far as the HA-2 goes, well that just makes me nervous...

Nate

[Tyll Hertsens]

And as far as the HA-2 goes, well that just makes me nervous...

Me too! I think it's idiotic for HeadRoom not to be in tube amps. But you're right, I only have so much money, so I can only do so many things. What to do? No shit, what to do? This is a private forum; I'm willing to talk a little more freely as long as it stays that way. Which should I make as an interim product: DAC; balanced DeskTop; or HA2? nI'd be interested in your opinions.

[Dusty Chalk]

Double-post, please delete this one.

[Dusty Chalk]

Um...you know it's no longer an invitation-only forum, don't-cha?

MHO: HA2 -- just so that Dave gets off my back about mine.

A more entry-levelly-priced balanced amp would definitely be a good thing.

The world has enough DACs -- if you want to enter into that fray, be my guest, but jebus, I'd stay hella far away from it, myself.

Unless you want to give yourself a twist -- like a USB driver that bypasses that mixer problem (K-mixer? G-mixer?), or upsamples post-HDCD-decode. Something to stand it apart from the crowd.