HP1000 vs. L3000 (now with head size discussion!)

[Voltron]

Q:

Let me throw one more monkey into the mix: Which do you feel would be a better compliment to my current headphone stable (assuming that I don't let them go), which consists of vintage RS-1 and HD650?

A: L3000

[mulveling]

Let me throw one more monkey into the mix: Which do you feel would be a better compliment to my current headphone stable (assuming that I don't let them go), which consists of vintage RS-1 and HD650?

It's a tricky qualitative assessment, and I can't explain why really, but overall I feel the HD650 and hp1000 are more similar to each other than to the L3000. So in that sense, the L3000 is the better complement. On the other hand if you're only looking at tone & mids in isolation, then the hp1000 would create the greater triangulation of variety along with the HD650 and vintage RS1 endpoints.

[recstar24]

After reading this thread so far, a couple of you guys (recstar and smeggy) are scaring me just slightly more than a little.

Its kind of like how some guys compare cars to girls, even give them female names. For example, my first car was a 1991 plymouth voyager, a real POS. I called her Daphne. She was a big girl, but she was gentle. Its just one of those things I guess...

[Smeggy]

I was just speaking in the spirit of the original post

[Elephas]

I currently have an HP2 and two L3000's, one stock and one recabled with APureSound v3, which I use with a Zana Deux. Primary source is the Esoteric P-05, D-05, G-03X. I also use a Chord DAC64 and Accuphase DP500.

I like a large soundstage, precision imaging and an open, airy type of sound with liquidity and maximum details and refinement. I'm not a basshead and don't like heavy, pounding bass. I'm usually less concerned with absolute perceived tonal accuracy or tonal realism, which is a reason why I enjoy using multiple headphones.

I prefer the L3000 over the HP2, especially the recabled unit which has a larger soundstage and more air. It still can't match open headphones or the W5000, but the recable adds just enough to move it up my rankings past the PS-1 and recabled W5000. Compared to the stock L3000, it does sacrifice some weight and fullness of body.

I would describe the HP2 as accurate, tonally balanced and neutral-sounding, but it lacks details, some body, extension at both ends and most importantly, refinement vs. the L3000. To me, the L3000 is also more colored in a good way and is more engaging with faster-paced and more energetic types of music. The L3000 has a very unique sound and is probably the headphone that requires the most "brain burn-in" of the ones I rotate through. This means I don't use the L3000 often and usually listen to it exclusively for at least a week at a time.

Both the HP2 and L3000 sound excellent with the Zana Deux, better than the AT-HA5000, Raptor or the limited number of other amps I've tried. The ZD has excellent dynamics, is very quiet and allows both headphones to open up more.

[Jon L]

I like a large soundstage, precision imaging and an open, airy type of sound with liquidity and maximum details and refinement. I'm not a basshead and don't like heavy, pounding bass.

With taste like that, why not a great 'stat?

I like L3000 a lot, but for that kind of $$, one could buy quite a 'stat..

[Fing]

[riceboy]

The HP2 is way more finicky about amps than the L3k, imho. With the perfect amp, I may pick the grado. In most situations, it's all about the audio technica. If you're gonna build an amp around either, go L3000. If your'e not, go L3000. If you already have the perfect amp for the hp2, go hp2. If you want sterile rather than fun, go hp2.

Grawk definitely put it well in regards to the amp pairing and fun (L3000) or sterile (HP2). I liked the L3000s as she was a fun girl. But the HP2 was more like a vintage fine wine.

[riceboy]

I currently have an HP2 and two L3000's, one stock and one recabled with APureSound v3, which I use with a Zana Deux. Primary source is the Esoteric P-05, D-05, G-03X. I also use a Chord DAC64 and Accuphase DP500.

I like a large soundstage, precision imaging and an open, airy type of sound with liquidity and maximum details and refinement. I'm not a basshead and don't like heavy, pounding bass. I'm usually less concerned with absolute perceived tonal accuracy or tonal realism, which is a reason why I enjoy using multiple headphones.

I prefer the L3000 over the HP2, especially the recabled unit which has a larger soundstage and more air. It still can't match open headphones or the W5000, but the recable adds just enough to move it up my rankings past the PS-1 and recabled W5000. Compared to the stock L3000, it does sacrifice some weight and fullness of body.

I would describe the HP2 as accurate, tonally balanced and neutral-sounding, but it lacks details, some body, extension at both ends and most importantly, refinement vs. the L3000. To me, the L3000 is also more colored in a good way and is more engaging with faster-paced and more energetic types of music. The L3000 has a very unique sound and is probably the headphone that requires the most "brain burn-in" of the ones I rotate through. This means I don't use the L3000 often and usually listen to it exclusively for at least a week at a time.

Both the HP2 and L3000 sound excellent with the Zana Deux, better than the AT-HA5000, Raptor or the limited number of other amps I've tried. The ZD has excellent dynamics, is very quiet and allows both headphones to open up more.

These are great comparisons for sure. I would have to agree as well with the sound of the L3000 and HP2. I haven't heard either with a ZD, but did hear both side by side with my SP amp and I did enjoy my L3000s more than the HP2. Like I said earlier she's a fun girl, but nothings wrong with age and refinement .

[Killercrush]

After reading this thread so far, a couple of you guys (recstar and smeggy) are scaring me just slightly more than a little.

These are great comparisons for sure. I would have to agree as well with the sound of the L3000 and HP2. I haven't heard either with a ZD, but did hear both side by side with my SP amp and I did enjoy my L3000s more than the HP2. Like I said earlier she's a fun girl, but nothings wrong with age and refinement .

Well, you can add riceboy to that list boomana hehe !

Oh and Ryan, take the HP1000, you know you want it.

[JimP]

I sold my L3000 because I thought the K1000 was my 'IT' phones. Long story short, tried selling my DHA3000 dac/amp, which was damaged in shipping, but was able to have it inspected and fixed by AT Japan (great service, btw). With the DHA3000 back in my hands, then I ended buying another L3000 (??!!) - it's the opposite of K1000, but opposite is good sometimes. I've not had the HP1000, but I've owned PS-1 before. From sonic memory (which is not always reliable), I think PS-1 betters L3000, but for me I had serious comfort issues with PS-1 (and probably why I'm wary of HP1000, ie fit issues again). I have an RS-1 which I run out of my LisaIIIXP with bass boost, which fools me into thinking it's quasi-PS-1. I disagree with earlier post that L3000 is more amp compliant, I find it quite finicky. Not that I have a wide range of amps, but it's the DHA3000 so far that elevates it to 'world class'. Like OP, I have RS-1 and HD650, and if I were to compliment that between L3000 and HP1000, I would choose...uh...K1000.

[laxx]

Hey, at least your choice has x000 in it.

[purk]

I sold my L3000 because I thought the K1000 was my 'IT' phones. Long story short, tried selling my DHA3000 dac/amp, which was damaged in shipping, but was able to have it inspected and fixed by AT Japan (great service, btw). With the DHA3000 back in my hands, then I ended buying another L3000 (??!!) - it's the opposite of K1000, but opposite is good sometimes. I've not had the HP1000, but I've owned PS-1 before. From sonic memory (which is not always reliable), I think PS-1 betters L3000, but for me I had serious comfort issues with PS-1 (and probably why I'm wary of HP1000, ie fit issues again). I have an RS-1 which I run out of my LisaIIIXP with bass boost, which fools me into thinking it's quasi-PS-1. I disagree with earlier post that L3000 is more amp compliant, I find it quite finicky. Not that I have a wide range of amps, but it's the DHA3000 so far that elevates it to 'world class'. Like OP, I have RS-1 and HD650, and if I were to compliment that between L3000 and HP1000, I would choose...uh...K1000.

JimP,

I'm having the exact same issue with my DHA3000, but only on the coaxial input. Care to share on what went wrong? Also as great as the L3000 sounds with the DHA3000, my SDS-SE really elevate the sound of my L3000 to an amazing level.

Purk

[JimP]

Purk, I think my problem is different from yours. My coax and optical was fine...in transit, it seems a circuit related to the volume control was damaged. It cost about yen 11,000 (approx. US$110) at AT Japan all-in to have it repaired.

[mulveling]

Purk, I think my problem is different from yours. My coax and optical was fine...in transit, it seems a circuit related to the volume control was damaged. It cost about yen 11,000 (approx. US$110) at AT Japan all-in to have it repaired.

That seems a very reasonable repair bill, especially for a statement product. Sony could learn a thing or two from AT there

[guzziguy]

That seems a very reasonable repair bill, especially for a statement product. Sony could learn a thing or two from AT there

It's been my experience that Sony doesn't seem to be able to learn anything about customer service.

[JimP]

BTW, that included shipping as well from Japan to Hong Kong. The great service on this DHA3000 repair has notched up AT in my pantheon.

[purk]

Wonder if they will repair mine DHA3000. I had mikhail upgraded the amp with blackgates... It sounds better than stock but not sure if they will still repair it. BTW, the coaxial was broken b/f the upgrade.

[Elephas]

With taste like that, why not a great 'stat?

I like L3000 a lot, but for that kind of $$, one could buy quite a 'stat..

Yes, I didn't mention that I prefer several electrostats, the R10, Qualia, K1000 and maybe a few others more than the L3000 or HP-2.

I was disappointed with the HP-2 and Zana Deux combination. A major reason I got the ZD was to use it with a stock HP-2, because I've recabled most of my dynamics with balanced cables. I don't think the HP-2 ranks with the top electrostats or dynamics, to me it is RS-1, K701 or HD650 level (single-ended amp).

[JimP]

Purk, here is AT Japan email: [email protected], if you want to inquire.

FYI, initially they stated that policy is only to service in Japan as this is a Japan-only product. However, they seem to take great pride in their product, and without much prodding, offered to service the DHA3000. Be patient with the communication as english is obviously not their first language. I eventually got a call from a Japanese woman out of the blue who apologized for the delay in repair/shipping (didn't get her name but that's digressing too far!). Again, it's refreshing to see this type of quality service/support. To OP, apologies as this has strayed from your question. But there is an important implication here - if my L3000 ever require service, I'm fairly confident AT would step up. If HP1000 needs future service, I'm not certain current Grado would step up (I stand corrected if that's not the case).

[purk]

Purk, here is AT Japan email: [email protected], if you want to inquire.

FYI, initially they stated that policy is only to service in Japan as this is a Japan-only product. However, they seem to take great pride in their product, and without much prodding, offered to service the DHA3000. Be patient with the communication as english is obviously not their first language. I eventually got a call from a Japanese woman out of the blue who apologized for the delay in repair/shipping (didn't get her name but that's digressing too far!). Again, it's refreshing to see this type of quality service/support. To OP, apologies as this has strayed from your question. But there is an important implication here - if my L3000 ever require service, I'm fairly confident AT would step up. If HP1000 needs future service, I'm not certain current Grado would step up (I stand corrected if that's not the case).

Thanks. I'm going to check with Matt Anker of SACDmods first for the repair. If he can't get my DHA3000 repair, I will proceed with AT Japan. Thanks again for info.

[recstar24]

If HP1000 needs future service, I'm not certain current Grado would step up (I stand corrected if that's not the case).

For the most part you are correct. John won't help you that is for sure, however I did speak with Joe last week and when I asked him if he was still available to service the HP-1000's, he replied "Sure...as long as I am still here..." Gotta love that old school new york humor. He did say as an alternative that I could buy his nephew's SR125 series and buy some flat pads from him. When I told Joe that I actually have the RS-1, Joe replied "ummm...what's that?" God bless the old son of a gun, gotta love it.

Random update - I settled on the HP-2...ummm...actually I settled on 2 of them One with the standard cable, one with the ultrawide cable. Definitely was NOT my intention to buy 2 of the freaking things, but I got two offers, one came before the other, the 1st guy didn't get back to me for like a week or so, the 2nd guy was offering a very sane and reasonable price (how shocking), preferred to just get the 1st one, but I didn't want to let the 2nd one go, so who am I to deny any of their joe gradoness. I would imagine I will probably let one of them go in a bit. One of them did have the drivers replaced by Joe in 2005 which is great.

Reasons why I didn't go with the L3000:

1) Wasn't sure how it would mate with the Zana. I emailed Craig and he definitely loves the phone and its his favorite, but thought it sounded its best on his transformer coupled amps. Also he let me know that the impedance curve is really wacky and all over the place, so you really need an amp that has a very low output impedance to make sure the damping factor is high and keeps the impedance controlled throughout the range. This is probably the reason why impressions on the L3000 can be a bit over the place, classic story of a can being driven to all sorts of different levels. On the other hand, I have been happy in the past with the HP1000 and Zana, really thought it was a nice fit with the meridian, so I am more clear on what I am going to get and expect.

2) The couple of times I have heard the L3000 really weren't special or "ah ha" moments, whereas I could not possibly count all the numerous ah ha moments i've had with the HP1000. at the chicago meet, the L3000 sounded really good with my moth s2a3 but I no longer own the amp so its a moot point. I had an extended audition with the L3000 being driven by the Krell SACD standard and my EC/SS (what I could bring over the guy's place at the time) and I noticed a couple of different things. Bit of a midrange suckout in relation to the HP1000, didn't quite have the midrange magic of the Grado. Also I noticed a slight coloration in the upper mids, a glare of some sort, like a glassy patina that was on top of everything. Definitely nothing crazy or something so extreme that it would cause you to not like the can, but I guess I just find the Hp1000 to be more transparent and neutral and that is kind of what I am looking for. Obviously I only have a very limited amount of L3000 empirical experience to use to base my decision on, hence why I sought out the advice of you guys and gals.

3) The L3000 has been referred to as an "euphonic" can or sounding "fun" to some. I feel I have that already - my vintage RS-1's. God damn do those things do so many things right, I actually prefer them and find them superior than the PS-1. The vintage RS-1 is full of coloration but I have not heard a can where those colorations seem to synergize so well together than the RS-1. I really do believe there is enough of a difference between the vintage and current stock, noticeably the tighter upper bass, resulting in more apparent low end extension, less bloat in that area leading from the upper bass into the lower mids, the biggest difference is the lack of glare up top that the current stock RS-1's exhibit. This is based on experience of owning 2 vintage RS-1's and 3 current stock RS-1's in addition to all the meets I've been able to compare them to. For me my fun awesome can is my vintage RS-1, and what I was looking for to compliment her was something more neutral and transparent. Now I am not saying the vintage RS-1 is on the same level as the L3000, the L3000 is definitely more detailed, less colored, more comfortable, more neutral, on paper is a superior phone, but damn I just love the way my rs-1 sounds on my current rig.

I think that covers it. Thanks for the input from everyone. I am excited to be able to directly compare and A/B in my rig the standard vs ultrawide cable, its always been about acoustic memory for me, but probably will end up letting one of them go after I'm done checking them out and seeing which one I prefer if I can even tell a difference.

[purk]

recstar24 ,

Dude you are missing out on the L3000 goodness. I still use mine everyday and won't sell it. The L3000 also sound excellent out of Zana Deux man and it is very difficult to find a better closed headphone. Buy one now before it went over 3k. Did I mention that the L3000 is much better built and much more comfortable than the HP1000? Of course, I love the HP2 too but the L3000 just sound better to my ears.

[recstar24]

recstar24 ,

Dude you are missing out on the L3000 goodness. I still use mine everyday and won't sell it. The L3000 also sound excellent out of Zana Deux man and it is very difficult to find a better closed headphone. Buy one now before it went over 3k. Did I mention that the L3000 is much better built and much more comfortable than the HP1000? Of course, I love the HP2 too but the L3000 just sound better to my ears.

Oh don't worry the door isn't shut completely - local headfier, offering me again a very reasonable and sane deal or at least noticeably lower than what the past l3000's have been going for, at bare minimum I could check them out and unload them and pass the savings to the community. The idea of a high quality bad ass looking insanely built closed headphone is very appealing. The hp1000 is built very well imo just in a very simplistic manner. The l3000 appears to offer a more luxurious experience in that regard especially with the comfort, but comfort is simply not an issue with my and grados.

[purk]

Oh don't worry the door isn't shut completely - local headfier, offering me again a very reasonable and sane deal or at least noticeably lower than what the past l3000's have been going for, at bare minimum I could check them out and unload them and pass the savings to the community. The idea of a high quality bad ass looking insanely built closed headphone is very appealing. The hp1000 is built very well imo just in a very simplistic manner. The l3000 appears to offer a more luxurious experience in that regard especially with the comfort, but comfort is simply not an issue with my and grados.

Well....nice to know that you have the option. I can't think of any headphone beside the R10 that is built better than the L3000. The L3000 is very well built. It is also luxurious but the magnesium frame is pretty tough to beat. You are pretty lucky about the confort on those HP1000s. I cound't wear them for more than 20 mins. I love the HP1000 too.