HP1000 vs. L3000 (now with head size discussion!)

[aerius]

Probably. But from my experience, the HD-650 balanced out of SDS-XLR was head and shoulder above balanced PS-1, and RS-1 out of the same amp. The best I've heard the HP-2 was out of the Melos Sha Gold Ref and SP SDS, still I prefer the HD-650 over the HP2.

That's cause the SDS-XLR is a Senn amp and not the best match with Grados, not by a longshot. Hook the Grados up to something like this and they'll clobber the Senns. Outside of custom DIY jobs, no one really builds a high-end Grado amp, while high-end Senn amps are a dime a dozen. Which to me is criminal since the RS-1 has far more performance potential than any current production Senn. But that's fine for me since it leads to a market of cheaper RS-1's since people dump them without realizing how good they are.

[deepak]

That's cause the SDS-XLR is a Senn amp and not the best match with Grados, not by a longshot. Hook the Grados up to something like this and they'll clobber the Senns. Outside of custom DIY jobs, no one really builds a high-end Grado amp, while high-end Senn amps are a dime a dozen. Which to me is criminal since the RS-1 has far more performance potential than any current production Senn. But that's fine for me since it leads to a market of cheaper RS-1's since people dump them without realizing how good they are.

People aren't dumping RS-1s for cheap. They've been selling for about $550 which is like $20 less than what a new pair can be had for if you know where to look

I'd say out of all the current production headphones (minus fotm headphones) the RS-1 holds its value the best out of any headphone bought new.

[Guest sacd lover]

People aren't dumping RS-1s for cheap. They've been selling for about $550 which is like $20 less than what a new pair can be had for if you know where to look

I'd say out of all the current production headphones (minus fotm headphones) the RS-1 holds its value the best out of any headphone bought new.

That or the MS2i. You see people selling 2ND/ 3rd owner MS2i's for $270- $279, plus shipping .... new the headphone is $299 shipping included .

[tom_hankins]

That's cause the SDS-XLR is a Senn amp and not the best match with Grados, not by a longshot. Hook the Grados up to something like this and they'll clobber the Senns. Outside of custom DIY jobs, no one really builds a high-end Grado amp, while high-end Senn amps are a dime a dozen. Which to me is criminal since the RS-1 has far more performance potential than any current production Senn. But that's fine for me since it leads to a market of cheaper RS-1's since people dump them without realizing how good they are.

How much time have you spent comparing the RS-1 and HD650 with the SDS-XLR?

[aardvark baguette]

I've got a question for the group: Which phone is the Audio Technica ATH-AD2000 most similar to: HP2 or L3000? Is it closest to 'fun neutral' like that of the L3000 or 'sterile neutral' of the HP2? I ask because I may sell my Dennon D2000s and replace with these in my office. Or just another pair of HD650s, possibly. I have enough room to where an open design does not really bother others.

[Voltron]

I've got a question for the group: Which phone is the Audio Technica ATH-AD2000 most similar to: HP2 or L3000? Is it closest to 'fun neutral' like that of the L3000 or 'sterile neutral' of the HP2? I ask because I may sell my Dennon D2000s and replace with these in my office. Or just another pair of HD650s, possibly. I have enough room to where an open design does not really bother others.

I'd say they are on the fun neutral side because they have a nice warmth to them without being slow and sloggy. I use them as my office cans and think they are just right for that duty. Quite open so I can hear a knock or the phone ringing and very, very comfortable. Good choice.

[aardvark baguette]

Ahh....interesting

[aerius]

How much time have you spent comparing the RS-1 and HD650 with the SDS-XLR?

About 30 minutes or so, out of a Simaudio Eclipse. Great with Senns, kinda "meh" with RS-1's. With the RS-1 I found it lacking in snap, dynamics, and control, it's fine with Patricia Barber or Cowboy Junkies, but it doesn't work with Black Sabbath or Slayer, let along Fear Factory.

[purk]

That's cause the SDS-XLR is a Senn amp and not the best match with Grados, not by a longshot. Hook the Grados up to something like this and they'll clobber the Senns. Outside of custom DIY jobs, no one really builds a high-end Grado amp, while high-end Senn amps are a dime a dozen. Which to me is criminal since the RS-1 has far more performance potential than any current production Senn. But that's fine for me since it leads to a market of cheaper RS-1's since people dump them without realizing how good they are.

If the SDS-XLR can drive the R10 to match or exceed the performance of HE90+HEV90 combo, I can't see why it will have any problem driving any grado. Trust me, the R10 is much more difficult drive than any dynamics out there, even more than the K1000. All you have to do is roll the input and output tubes on the SDS-XLR, and you will have one amp for all headphones. Ask Voltron why he likes his SDS-XLR so much.

[NotoriousBIG_PJ]

If the SDS-XLR can drive the R10 to match or exceed the performance of HE90+HEV90 combo, I can't see why it will have any problem driving any grado. Trust me, the R10 is much more difficult drive than any dynamics out there, even more than the K1000. All you have to do is roll the input and output tubes on the SDS-XLR, and you will have one amp for all headphones. Ask Voltron why he likes his SDS-XLR so much.

R-10 needs an amp to plump its rolled off bass. I don't see how that would help a grado to sound good. The "top of the otl mountain" is not going to maximize a grados potential.

Biggie.

[hirsch]

R-10 needs an amp to plump its rolled off bass. I don't see how that would help a grado to sound good. The "top of the otl mountain" is not going to maximize a grados potential.

Yes to the first. If you use published maximum power handling specs, the R10 can draw more amps than the K-1000. Impedance is not flat throughout the headphone, being lowest, meaning it needs more current draw, in the low end. It's still not doing to be bass-heavy, but you do need to feed it more amperage than just about any other headphone or the low end starves. You're not going to get this without a good amp.

High output current is a good thing for any low-impedance headphone. That includes Grado's.

[Guest sacd lover]

R-10 needs an amp to plump its rolled off bass. I don't see how that would help a grado to sound good. The "top of the otl mountain" is not going to maximize a grados potential.

Biggie.

I own four transformer coupled amps with an upgraded Bottlehead on the way. I have yet to hear a transformer coupled tube amp that drives or sounds as good as my OTL amps with my MS2i's or woodied MS1's. I dont buy the claim Grados need this massive amount of current. I can make the Grado drivers cry for uncle with a 1.5 watt Extreme.

Grado drivers have an input max of what 200 ma; maybe only 100 ma? If an OTL has good current delivery the bass is phenomenal. Sure the Extreme is going to deliver less power @ 32 ohms. But, the amp still delivers much more power that the headphone can handle. More importantly the OTL's have more realism .... the overall dynamics, soundstaging and PRaT are preferable. All my transformer coupled amps seem dynamically compressed at the micro dynamic end to some degree and a little thin tonally; more solid state like.

The Ear+, the defacto king of Grado synergy has a maximum output of 100ma @ 32 ohms. I had a special Ear+ built with 4 x the power of the normal Ear+ .... which eventually became the Ear+ 200th anniversary edition. You could hear some extra punch to the sound. But the bass did not seem to have more authority and I had a standard Ear+ on hand for direct comparison. My 10 watt Sound Quest SQ-84, that uses 4x push/ pull triode strapped 6V6GT's has no more bass solidity and not nearly the dyanmics of my SP Extreme, MPX3 SLAM SE or especially the high voltage Supra that uses 6BL7GTA output tubes @ 400 volts.

I guess after much experimentation my opinion is that ....

1) the Grados really aren't that hard to drive.

2) high power OTL's have plenty of power @ 32 ohms to do any Grado full justice.

[aerius]

Yes to the first. If you use published maximum power handling specs, the R10 can draw more amps than the K-1000. Impedance is not flat throughout the headphone, being lowest, meaning it needs more current draw, in the low end. It's still not doing to be bass-heavy, but you do need to feed it more amperage than just about any other headphone or the low end starves. You're not going to get this without a good amp.

Which would point to transformer output amplifiers being the optimal match. My DIY tube amp as is will put out around 700mA, and if I don't mind running the tubes hot I can push the output to over a full amp. No OTL is going to match this without a stack of large power tubes. Stick 6BX7's in the output of my amp and crank'em up and I can have an output impedance of under 3 Ohms and a full amp of current available.

[aerius]

My experience has been the complete opposite of 5687's, I've yet to hear an OTL sound as good as even my lowly DIY tube amp, which uses $20 toroidal power transformers as the output transformers. I've heard more Chinese tube amps than I care to count, I've heard the Singlepower PPX3 Slam, MPX3 6BL7, and SDS-XLR. The last can beat my amp in resolution, but gets thumped in snap & dynamics, while all the others are soundly beaten in all respects. And that's before I slapped amorphous core Lundahls on the outputs of my amp. And there are still 3 fundamental design improvements I can make to my amp, all of which can signficantly improve the sound, but I'm just too damn lazy to do them.

[purk]

My experience has been the complete opposite of 5687's, I've yet to hear an OTL sound as good as even my lowly DIY tube amp, which uses $20 toroidal power transformers as the output transformers. I've heard more Chinese tube amps than I care to count, I've heard the Singlepower PPX3 Slam, MPX3 6BL7, and SDS-XLR. The last can beat my amp in resolution, but gets thumped in snap & dynamics, while all the others are soundly beaten in all respects. And that's before I slapped amorphous core Lundahls on the outputs of my amp. And there are still 3 fundamental design improvements I can make to my amp, all of which can signficantly improve the sound, but I'm just too damn lazy to do them.

We probably have to agree to disagree. From my expenrience with my SDS 6BL7GT, its far more dynamics than any amp I've tried short of the SDS-XLR. The snap & dynamics on my SDS-SE is pretty much equaled to the Dynamight/Beta22 with better tone and more pleasing presentation.

[Guest sacd lover]

My experience has been the complete opposite of 5687's, I've yet to hear an OTL sound as good as even my lowly DIY tube amp, which uses $20 toroidal power transformers as the output transformers. I've heard more Chinese tube amps than I care to count, I've heard the Singlepower PPX3 Slam, MPX3 6BL7, and SDS-XLR. The last can beat my amp in resolution, but gets thumped in snap & dynamics, while all the others are soundly beaten in all respects. And that's before I slapped amorphous core Lundahls on the outputs of my amp. And there are still 3 fundamental design improvements I can make to my amp, all of which can signficantly improve the sound, but I'm just too damn lazy to do them.

There is no way the transformer coupled amps I have are more dynamic. I have a Doge 6210 that was completely rebuilt to the tune of $500 in parts and a complete circuit redesign. Even my humble PPX3 SLAM is just plain better. The Doge is rated @ 0.5 watt with less than .1% distortion. The amp could easily do 3x the power at a 5% distortion spec. Transformers do something to suck some of the life out of the music, even the best ones.

[Guest sacd lover]

We probably have to agree to disagree. From my expenrience with my SDS 6BL7GT, its far more dynamics than any amp I've tried short of the SDS-XLR. The snap & dynamics on my SDS-SE is pretty much equaled to the Dynamight/Beta22 with better tone and more pleasing presentation.

I have a high voltage 6bl7gta Supra too. The dynamics on this amp are better than any amp I have heard tube or SS. The Supra has every bit as much speed as any of the Dynamight SS amps and more tone which adds even more power to the sound. I have never had the pleasure to hear the SDS-XLR.

[mulveling]

People who like the RS1 as their favorite, or near it, hear very differently than me. I think it's a given we'll also have different tastes in amps. Plus, I don't think I've heard an amp really change the fundamental signature of a headphone, so I doubt my RS1 ranking would rise much even on the consensus uber-amp for John Grados.

After subjective analysis of my experiences, I'd rate the R10 and HP1000 as the hardest to drive headphones; both are way harder than the RS1.

[laxx]

"The mulveling" has spoken.

[purk]

"The mulveling" has spoken.

[Guest sacd lover]

When my Bottlehead gets here I am contemplating getting the Magnequest Iron. I already had the amp modded to use the approximately 300 ohm secondary tap for Senns only. I also had the 120 ohm resistors removed from the 4/8 ohm tap and changed to a higher quality and lower impedence 20 ohm resistor for my Alessandros. The amp has a high low impedence switch so I can pick the tap best for the headphone. I keep trying, but I have yet to get the sound quality out of a transformer coupled amp I do with the OTL's. The Bottlehead uses 6DN7's and has a power output equivalent to a 2A3. The issue wont be power or impedence if the amp fails to deliver.

[aerius]

The Bottlehead uses 6DN7's and has a power output equivalent to a 2A3. The issue wont be power or impedence if the amp fails to deliver.

No, it doesn't. Maximum plate dissipation on 6DN7's is 10W, with a plate resistance of around 2.5k. For a 2A3 it's 15W and 800 Ohms, respectively.

I have a whole box of 6EM7's, 6DN7's, and other such dissimilar triode tubes, they're not as good as the two RCA (dual plate) 2A3's I have. The output section on those dissimilar triodes is basically the same as one section of a 6BL7 or 6BX7, good, but still not as good as 2A3's, nevermind the AD1.

[Guest sacd lover]

No, it doesn't. Maximum plate dissipation on 6DN7's is 10W, with a plate resistance of around 2.5k. For a 2A3 it's 15W and 800 Ohms, respectively.

I have a whole box of 6EM7's, 6DN7's, and other such dissimilar triode tubes, they're not as good as the two RCA (dual plate) 2A3's I have. The output section on those dissimilar triodes is basically the same as one section of a 6BL7 or 6BX7, good, but still not as good as 2A3's, nevermind the AD1.

Darn you saw that. I meant 45, but of course, I passed the deadline to edit my post once I discovered my error.

The amplifier's power output is approximately 2 watts RMS per channel at 10% THD at 500Hz, similar to a single ended 45 tube amplifier. Frequency response at 1V output is -3dB at 27Hz and 22kHz. The amplifier has an input sensitivity of .62V RMS and a gain of approximately 15 dB at 1 kHz and can be wired for 8 ohm or 4 ohm speakers. 16 ohm speakers will run well on the 8 ohm tap at slightly reduced power levels. Input impedance is 100Kohms.

[aerius]

Darn you saw that. I meant 45, but of course, I passed the deadline to edit my post once I discovered my error.

Similar electrical characteristics as a 45 as far as Rp and power go, but in terms of distortion harmonics it's not even close. The distortion harmonics of 45's, 50's, and AD1's is literally unmeasurable at any reasonable listening level. Design the amp properly and the 2nd hamonic will be over 100dB down from the fundamental, and everything after that is buried in the noise floor. 6SN7's, 6BL7's, 5687's, and 6EM7's will generally be somewhere around 50-75dB down depending on how good the design is, still orders of magnitude worse than a 45.

[deepak]

To derail this further, are there any good 45 line or phono stages out there?