Buffy and Angel and other Whedon stuff

[n_maher]

Am I the only person who thought that Buffy went wrong in the opposite direction to Charmed and that Angel was mostly dull meh?

Buffy had it's ups and downs for sure, but on the whole it was great.

Angel, I've never watched the whole thing and I'm working my way through Season 2 now. So far so... well, uneven. There are great episodes and then pretty meh episodes but I'm still enjoying it.

[thrice]

Angel gets better but as a whole is not as good as Buffy.

[laxx]

I'm nearing the end of season 3 of Angel and I'm not enjoying it much.

I don't get how he's not Angelous after having his son. How is that moment not a moment of pure happiness? That really got me irked.

[Dusty Chalk]

I don't get how he's not Angelous after having his son. How is that moment not a moment of pure happiness? That really got me irked.

Because Darla spoils it for him -- he also had sex with Darla, but because his feelings for her aren't perfect enough, it's not pure happiness.

Am I the only person who thought that Buffy went wrong in the opposite direction to Charmed and that Angel was mostly dull meh?

Wait, did you just try and say that Charmed was better than Buffy? Jesus Christ, do you drink sugar water, too?

[thrice]

Because Darla spoils it for him -- he also had sex with Darla, but because his feelings for her aren't perfect enough, it's not pure happiness.

Yep, perfect happiness is a state of mind more than a physical happenstance. Since banging Buffy, his true love, made him perfectly happy, he went all GRRRRR, ARGH. But banging Darla, while Julie Benz is insanely hot, was less happy and more angry fuck you sex.

[Dusty Chalk]

Exactly.

[Duggeh]

Wait, did you just try and say that Charmed was better than Buffy? Jesus Christ, do you drink sugar water, too?

No, I said they went different ways in jumping the shark.

[thrice]

How do you feel Buffy jumped the shark? I could possibly see Angel, but I'm less inclined to say so with Buffy.

[Duggeh]

There are a few debateable points, but I think that

when they upped the bad guy to a God and introduced a younger sister through a plot device which, no matter what any fan says, was seriously crowbarred

, that would be it.

Dude -- the guy just said he was only up to season 3. -- Dusty

[laxx]

Well, I get that Darla isn't "the one" for him, so banging her out didn't turn him back to Angelous, but having a son that he never thought could be possible, I'd expect perfect happiness from that, regardless who the mother is. Am I the only one to think that?

[Duggeh]

Spoiler button posts should have a context, so that you don't click them out of pure curiosity.

[Dusty Chalk]

Douchebaggery should be so painful.

[en480c4]

Considering Buffy is largely a metaphor for growing up...

Angel turning bad after sex was entirely about the fact that many young women have to deal with guys turning into complete assholes once they get what they want. As is often the case, Joss took a common them of growing up and took it to the next level using demons, monsters and vampires. In my opinion it was an easy thing to work around with respect to Darla. When taken literally, the whole moment of pure happiness thing could apply to both Buffy and Darla, but it's pretty easy to treat them entirely different when looking at the why.

[Duggeh]

i'm sorry, Duggeh, but i have no choice but to ban you and delete your account and fly to Scotland and bash your head in with a lamp.

If you come to Scotland can we go out and get marvellously drunk in the Cellar bar on jazz night before you beat me up?

[thrice]

Considering Buffy is largely a metaphor for growing up...

Angel turning bad after sex was entirely about the fact that many young women have to deal with guys turning into complete assholes once they get what they want. As is often the case, Joss took a common them of growing up and took it to the next level using demons, monsters and vampires. In my opinion it was an easy thing to work around with respect to Darla. When taken literally, the whole moment of pure happiness thing could apply to both Buffy and Darla, but it's pretty easy to treat them entirely different when looking at the why.

Indeed.

If you come to Scotland can we go out and get marvellously drunk in the Cellar bar on jazz night before you beat me up?

Oh man can I come...not to beat up Duggeh 'cause I wouldn't want to do that. On some level he's right about Buffy but on another level perhaps not:

but I think the fantastic writing and character development more than make up for Dawn's sudden existence via a plot point, moreover one could argue that he was subverting that whole plot point and used a whole fucking season to do it.... kinda like the really bad joke that goes so far that it comes right back to being funny again. Whedon does that a lot throughout both series. I think he did it better in Buffy. There were always these little moments when you thought, oh here's where a cheesey writer/director will do X, and then he doe sit, but with Whedon, it's with a wink of the eye or it becomes something actually serious and meaningful.

So in closing, everyone is right because it's what they like and their opinion is valid because there are no more benchmarks other than personal experience from which to judge anything.

Oh yeah:

yo momma

[lostonetr]

Harroz. Don't want to spoil it for whoever...but anyone wana PM me, how Buffy ended? Semi curious...

[Duggeh]

I should point out, that while I stand by my stance that both Charmed an Buffy (and I use them both side by side because they are, in broad terms comparable in term of scope of focus) jumped the shark, Buffy was, over the whole run, a far better programme. I would contest though that the first 3, and debateably first 4 or 5 seasons of charmed, were, respectively to each scope of scale, better, and on par debatable better, than their Buffy counterparts. Once Charmed went downhill it fucking freefell. Buffy managed to dodge and weave along fresh lines far more adeptly, allowing it to retain a larger degree of steam power. How much of this was due to budgetary limits and how much was due to exasperation in the creativity f plot is up for as much debate as preference between the programmes during their first 3 (probably strongest, more visceral) seasons.

[thrice]

There are lots of plot and episode synopsis on the web, just google buffy episode guide.

[Dusty Chalk]

So in closing, everyone is right because it's what they like and their opinion is valid because there are no more benchmarks other than personal experience from which to judge anything.

Incorrect, you fence-sitter. Duggeh is wrong. And drunk.

[en480c4]

I should point out, that while I stand by my stance that both Charmed an Buffy (and I use them both side by side because they are, in broad terms comparable in term of scope of focus) <snip>

Fail.

I would argue that they are comparable only in the most superficial ways... I fail to see anything beyond a (mediocre) supernatural serial drama in Charmed, with no greater scope or focus. Buffy, on the other hand, can be enjoyed on multiple levels. While it wasn't always successful, Buffy was far more ambitious and as a result, it gets the benefit of the doubt with respect to its few missteps (of which I don't include Dawn, for the record).

[Duggeh]

Incorrect, you fence-sitter. Duggeh is wrong. And drunk.

You're half right.

[Dusty Chalk]

You're half right.

That's like saying a full-glass is half-full.

[Duggeh]

Im downloading Buffy right now. I've just chewed through all 8 seasons of Charmed (oh and wasn't 8 just so very very awful) so its only fair to do the same with her Buffyness.

[grawk]

my glass is half full. I'll have to refill it soon.

[Singapura]

I have the limited edition DVD set of Angel. Bought it from Amazon for $69,99 It's back to $130 now though. It's almost impossible to watch series due to the excessive amount of commercials so downloading seems to be the best way. The orginal sets are still the best though.