Cinemag SUTs

[postjack]

So the next step for me after I run the Bugle for a while will be to try a SUT with an MM tube phono stage. Of course I'm already looking for an appropriate SUT, and it appears that the Cinemag transformers are within my price range, and supposedly they have a synergy with the DL-103 line of carts.

There are two builders I've come across. anumber1 on agon and capnbob on eBay. I have read that anumber1 is a popular guy on aa, but I've never spoken with him. Capnbob responded to a question I had quickly last night, and he regularly sells Altec and Cinemag SUTs which always go quickly. However, capnbob's price is $85 more then anumber1's. Also, anumber1's layout of ins on one side and outs on the other would work better for my setup.

Is there any reason I should go with capnbob's above anumber1's? Bob's looks nicer, but if I get a SUT it will be tucked behind my turntable anyway, so looks aren't important.

Thanks!

[postjack]

Also it looks like capnbob's has an additional switch: ground/lift. I have no idea what this does.

[n_maher]

Also it looks like capnbob's has an additional switch: ground/lift. I have no idea what this does.

Typically it allows you to enable/disable the safety ground (the third prong on your power cord). This can help with ground loop issues in some cases. Since this is a passive device it must be slightly different but essentially probably floats a ground connection instead of tying it to the chassis.

[luvdunhill]

why go with these over the Lundahl / K&K step-up?

[postjack]

why go with these over the Lundahl / K&K step-up?

good question. because cinemags are spoken of so highly when used in conjunction with the dl-103?

[aerius]

I remember reading a test on various step-up transformers in AudioXpress sometime within the last year. As I recall, but I could be wrong, the Cinemag step-up had the best squarewave & frequency response specs. I can't really remember what they said about the sound though, or which cartridge(s) they used for the test.

[postjack]

I remember reading a test on various step-up transformers in AudioXpress sometime within the last year. As I recall, but I could be wrong, the Cinemag step-up had the best squarewave & frequency response specs. I can't really remember what they said about the sound though, or which cartridge(s) they used for the test.

They're supposed to be a good cheaper alternative to Altec-Peerless.

[luvdunhill]

what transformers do the bent audio mu step-ups use?

[Dusty Chalk]

WTF is that? It's pretty (black)...looks like a big...capacitor...(hypnotizedly) I. Do. Want. One.

[postjack]

what transformers do the bent audio mu step-ups use?

dunno.

[aerius]

what transformers do the bent audio mu step-ups use?

They used to use the S&B TX103, but I think they had some kind of falling out in the business dealings and had to go searching for a new supplier. The last time I checked which was around 3-4 months ago, I think, they were still looking around.

[Grand Enigma]

Yup they used S&B.... they are supposedly working on a new a better one which will likely be easily $1,000+

The K&K transformer is nice and a simple kit to build. The Cinemags I would agree do have a better overall sound. The K&K sounds a bit congested and harsh compared to the Cinemags. The Altec Peerless are very good but you really are paying a lot for the vintage... unless you happen to buy a mixer that has 4 of them in it for $75

I personally have used/built K&K stepups, Cinemag and currently use an Altec Peerless one I built. The Cinemag is very nice and can be built for around $175 or so. With the Altec transformers you are looking at a cool $400 or so just for the transformers if you can find them online.

[postjack]

GE, you are the one that got me interested in this whole thing when you linked that altec peerless SUT a few weeks back. thanks for chiming in!

[Grand Enigma]

GE, you are the one that got me interested in this whole thing when you linked that altec peerless SUT a few weeks back. thanks for chiming in!

I have completely eliminated a need for a separate preamp. My phono stage has a gain control and I use a stepup to up the gain a bit more. For a digital source I feed my iAudio 7 directly to my power amp and just use the volume on the dap to control gain. Nice, simple, and clean setup. Lovin it.

[aerius]

Though I suspect it will be pretty expensive with a 2-3 month wait time, you could order up a set of custom transformers from Tribute. I've heard their input, interstage, and output transformers and they're all outstanding, so I'd imagine their step-up would also be superb.

[luvdunhill]

[aerius]

Tango and Tamura are overrated, at least as far as their interstages & outputs are concerned. Tributes kill them.

[luvdunhill]

Tango and Tamura are overrated, at least as far as their interstages & outputs are concerned. Tributes kill them.

I would agree with the new Tango, but the old ones are very special IMHO. I finally fell in love with the Klyne and Pass phono stages and did away with such things...

I hope postjack finds something that works for him!

[deepak]

I decided I'm probably going to get the .25mv version of the DL-103, so I guess I'm in the market for a SUT as well

Any other suggestions? The Cinemag looks like a great deal now, but I want to do more reading on the Lundahls. Without the kit, the Lundahls are very reasonably priced as well...

Edited August 29, 2008 by deepak
wording

[Torpedo]

I decided I'm probably going to get the .25mv version of the DL-103, so I guess I'm in the market for a SUT as well

Any other suggestions? The Cinemag looks like a great deal now, but I want to do more reading on the Lundahls. Without the kit, the Lundahls are very reasonably priced as well...

I would advise the Music First unit, it uses the S&B trannies and it's very configurable for load and gain, but it's rather expensive. S&B trannies are among the most transparent, no identifiable character nor frequency rolloffs IMHO.

As Aerious said, Bent Audio used the S&B TX-103 trannies in their Mu step-ups for a way more affordable price, but they had to stop using them for distributor policies -nobody was purchasing the Music First units when they could buy the same trannies at half the price from Bent-. I don't know if BA still produce some SUT, but if they did, they'd be a very interesting product to try, John Chapman at Bent Audio knows a few things about "good sound".

I don't care very much for Tamuras nor Lundahls, I find them more compromised soundwise than S&B, but heck, many people prefers some flavour on their sound. The Ortofon Vento SUT uses the Lundahls and sells for 550 euros. Not a bad option nonetheless

If you're good at DIY, you may get the TX-103 directly from S&B and build your own SUT. This is their information e-mail, I contacted directly Jonathan Billington using it: [email protected] About three years ago they asked 200 euros for each trannie. Adding shipping and eventually VAT were you in the EU, the total cost could be something around 550 euros, depending on how much has the price increased in these years.

For an affordable option the own Denon produced a quite fine unit years ago which can be found on Ebay. Now there's one on auction. Never tried it, but I have been told it's quite OK for the price with Denon carts.

Rgrds

[deepak]

Thanks for the info Torpedo. I was probably going to go the DIY route. I'm in the US.

I was trying to keep it more budget oriented since my vinyl rig isn't very high end and I plan to upgrade the TT, phono and cart sometime.

[postjack]

Well you know my answer. I'd go for the Cinemags. Supposedly they do have a great synergy with DL-103 (I have no point of comparison, all I've heard is my Cinemags), and if you go DIY they'd be cheap as shit.

The DL-103 is THE classic cartridge. With me, you, and Chuck spinning one, we'll have a regular FOTM on our hands.

[Torpedo]

Thanks for the info Torpedo. I was probably going to go the DIY route. I'm in the US.

I was trying to keep it more budget oriented since my vinyl rig isn't very high end and I plan to upgrade the TT, phono and cart sometime.

You're welcome mate. This vinyl thing has too many variables to tweak and can become a nightmare hehehe. For an affordable DIY project the Lundhals can be just OK, however getting that Denon on Ebay -or any other when it came out- could be interesting, quite affordable and "good enough". Not sure how much would cost you building a SUT using some Lundahls, but probably not much cheaper.

Rgrds

[Torpedo]

Well you know my answer. I'd go for the Cinemags. Supposedly they do have a great synergy with DL-103 (I have no point of comparison, all I've heard is my Cinemags), and if you go DIY they'd be cheap as shit.

The DL-103 is THE classic cartridge. With me, you, and Chuck spinning one, we'll have a regular FOTM on our hands.

Yep, the DL-103 is a very good cartridge for the price. Kind of "black & white" sounding, and a bitch to match with tonearms. That very low compliance, while on numbers can be handled... you'd be surprised how much better it sounds on a heavy tonearm. If properly set-up, I wouldn't spend more money for many many of those "high-end" carts in the kilobuck range.

[postjack]

Yep, the DL-103 is a very good cartridge for the price. Kind of "black & white" sounding, and a bitch to match with tonearms. That very low compliance, while on numbers can be handled... you'd be surprised how much better it sounds on a heavy tonearm. If properly set-up, I wouldn't spend more money for many many of those "high-end" carts in the kilobuck range.

It definitely loves S curved tonearms and detachable headshells.