Political discussion, including, but not limited to, the Iraq war and Bush II

[ojnihs]

One of the most important reasons from me not voting for any Republican (there are many bu this is the most important) is that 2 to 3 Supreme Court Justices are likely to retire and if a Republican is in office a women's right to choose will be taken away. I have a daughter and that is absolutely unacceptable to me. A president can only fuck things up for 2 terms, a Supreme Court Justice can do it for generations.

Good thing to bring up Tyrion, and I couldn't agree more. I don't see how it's any government's right to take away a women's right to choose.

[postjack]

I would've taken McCain over most of the other Republicans and I think a lot of Europeans, especially liberals would agree.

I voted for McCain in the Alabama primary instead of Obama because I disliked Romney and Huckabee so much. Just so long as we don't get one of "those republicans" in the White House I'll be pretty happy.

[ojnihs]

I would've taken McCain over most of the other Republicans and I think a lot of Europeans, especially liberals would agree.

I'd vote for Ron Paul anyday

[tyrion]

I didn't say that our system now was perfect, it's quite flawed. I agree with you. People deserve health care whether or not they can pay for it. I'm not becoming a doctor in this country to take care of those who are rich enough to pay for it so that I can earn a good living. I'm not in it for the money, never have been and never will be. Everyone deserves medical treatment, plain and simple.

That is certainly honorable. I have no problem with you earning a good living. You've put in a lot of time and effort and the work is hard.

But rather than working towards a solution to lower the cost of health care, Hillary is forcing people to have healthcare and fining you if you don't. How does fining someone who can't afford healthcare help the situation? This isn't the right solution, nor is simply having a government subsidized health care system, which as history shows, just doesn't work and is not efficient by any means. There's a reason that the US is the leader in medical technology and practice. We need to work on our current system without losing any of our current medical prowess.

That would be one of my disagreements with her plan, the idea of fining someone. Remeber, I'm in favor a single payer plan so both Obama and Clinton don't fit with my views.

I was able to stay out of this thread since aerius was doing a fine job without me. I used to like the TIO forum at HF (not sure how many here were around for it) but I think this politics takes away from my fun as I take it so, maybe too, seriously.

[grawk]

Everyone in this country is guaranteed medical treatment. Go to any public hospital, and they won't turn you away. Do you incure obligations? Of course, this isn't a socialist country. You have to pay for what you get. But medical bills also don't appear on your credit report.

You're not guaranteed every treatment option, but you'll be taken care of.

[tyrion]

Everyone in this country is guaranteed medical treatment. Go to any public hospital, and they won't turn you away. Do you incure obligations? Of course, this isn't a socialist country. You have to pay for what you get. But medical bills also don't appear on your credit report.

You're not guaranteed every treatment option, but you'll be taken care of.

Your just wrong Dan. There are plenty of people that can't get care for their cancer, and other serious medical problems. You can show up at the ER and get treatment but don't think that if you are diagnosed with cancer, they will provide you chemotheratpy or whatever else you need. No, we are not socialists but I would hope that we are compassinate enough to help those that for a variety of reasons can't help themselves. Are we all really that selfish? If so, shame on us. You know what, then lets all stop paying taxes and just make it a free for all. So what if children are on the street with no home and their parents dying from cancer. To hell with them, they are not our kids. Sorry, I just find that shameful. I could use the extra money each year from not paying taxes to send my kids to the most expensive private university, live in a nice apartment with a nice new car in the driveway, and...

[postjack]

I used to like the TIO forum at HF (not sure how many here were around for it)...

I wasn't, what was it? Taters, Iodine, and Offal?

[ojnihs]

I wasn't, what was it? Taters, Iodine, and Offal?

that sounds like a terrible combination

[tyrion]

I wasn't, what was it? Taters, Iodine, and Offal?

It was called Take It Outside where you could go and discuss politics and religion. I had fun but in the end it became a problem to moderate. Not that there was a lot of moderation but things became personal for some and that wasn't tolerated.

[aerius]

I think a large problem in the US is the mindless worship of Capitalism and the Free Market, American believe that it's inherently right and trust that invisible magic hand of the Free Market will automatically fix all that is wrong and make everything better. Regulation is equated with communism and evil, and therefore lack of regulation is good. They do not understand that Capitalism is just one end of the spectrum in socio-economic policies, instead, it's worshipped as if it's part of the fucking Constitution.

Raw unfettered Capitalism does not fix society's problems, rather, it results in the vast majority of the population being bent over and sodomized without lube. See industrial revolution Britain for an example. You had your nice rich factory owners, aristocrats, and merchants, while the majority of the population was worked to death in mines & factories. That's what raw Capitalism leads to, the dicking over of everyone by the rich.

[grawk]

Your just wrong Dan. There are plenty of people that can't get care for their cancer, and other serious medical problems. You can show up at the ER and get treatment but don't think that if you are diagnosed with cancer, they will provide you chemotheratpy or whatever else you need. No, we are not socialists but I would hope that we are compassinate enough to help those that for a variety of reasons can't help themselves. Are we all really that selfish? If so, shame on us. You know what, then lets all stop paying taxes and just make it a free for all. So what if children are on the street with no home and their parents dying from cancer. To hell with them, they are not our kids. Sorry, I just find that shameful. I could use the extra money each year from not paying taxes to send my kids to the most expensive private university, live in a nice apartment with a nice new car in the driveway, and...

We have medicaid for people making less than a certain threshhold. It's not the poor homeless kids with sick parents who aren't being helped. It's middle classed people who decide that they'd rather have a newer car than health insurance. Does it suck to get cancer? Of course it does. I believe that we should have a safety net. No solution is perfect. But I've yet to see an option put forth that's better than the system we currently have.

[tyrion]

I think a large problem in the US is the mindless worship of Capitalism and the Free Market, American believe that it's inherently right and trust that invisible magic hand of the Free Market will automatically fix all that is wrong and make everything better. Regulation is equated with communism and evil, and therefore lack of regulation is good. They do not understand that Capitalism is just one end of the spectrum in socio-economic policies, instead, it's worshipped as if it's part of the fucking Constitution.

Raw unfettered Capitalism does not fix society's problems, rather, it results in the vast majority of the population being bent over and sodomized without lube. See industrial revolution Britain for an example. You had your nice rich factory owners, aristocrats, and merchants, while the majority of the population was worked to death in mines & factories. That's what raw Capitalism leads to, the dicking over of everyone by the rich.

Excellent post!

[ojnihs]

We have medicaid for people making less than a certain threshhold. It's not the poor homeless kids with sick parents who aren't being helped. It's middle classed people who decide that they'd rather have a newer car than health insurance. Does it suck to get cancer? Of course it does. I believe that we should have a safety net. No solution is perfect. But I've yet to see an option put forth that's better than the system we currently have.

i'm going to have to agree with grawk on this statement.

[tyrion]

We have medicaid for people making less than a certain threshhold. It's not the poor homeless kids with sick parents who aren't being helped. It's middle classed people who decide that they'd rather have a newer car than health insurance. Does it suck to get cancer? Of course it does. I believe that we should have a safety net. No solution is perfect. But I've yet to see an option put forth that's better than the system we currently have.

I think your are generalizing here as to who is and isn't being helped. For example, the Chips law that didin't get extended to cover more kids. The upper income limit would have been like $70,000 or $80,000 dollars for a family of 4, roughly 4x the poverty level but the President would not sign and the Republicans in the Senate blocked it. If you think a family of 4 earning $80,000 a year is middle class and can afford health insurance, I think you are mistaken. Medicaid doesn't help those that are caught between poverty and the middle class.

[grawk]

I think your are generalizing here as to who is and isn't being helped. For example, the Chips law that didin't get extended to cover more kids. The upper income limit would have been like $70,000 or $80,000 dollars for a family of 4, roughly 4x the poverty level but the President would not sign and the Republicans in the Senate blocked it. If you think a family of 4 earning $80,000 a year is middle class and can afford health insurance, I think you are mistaken. Medicaid doesn't help those that are caught between poverty and the middle class.

Major medical coverage for a family of four is $400 a month or less. If you can't afford $400 a month for health insurance at $40k/yr, you need to review your priorities.

[aerius]

We have medicaid for people making less than a certain threshhold. It's not the poor homeless kids with sick parents who aren't being helped. It's middle classed people who decide that they'd rather have a newer car than health insurance. Does it suck to get cancer? Of course it does. I believe that we should have a safety net. No solution is perfect. But I've yet to see an option put forth that's better than the system we currently have.

I suggest looking at the Medicaid eligibility requirements. You're covered if you're on welfare, SSI, under 6 years of age or pregnant and making 133% or less of the poverty level, and a couple other conditions. Otherwise, you're shit out of luck. Single parent making $35k a year? Shit out of luck. He or she will have to quit their job and work minimum wage at Mickey D's to qualify.

[grawk]

Again, $35k a year, you can afford major medical coverage.

[tyrion]

Major medical coverage for a family of four is $400 a month or less. If you can't afford $400 a month for health insurance at $40k/yr, you need to review your priorities.

I guess we are way overpaying for insurance for our staff. I'll have to look into this.

[aerius]

Major medical coverage for a family of four is $400 a month or less. If you can't afford $400 a month for health insurance at $40k/yr, you need to review your priorities.

Assuming everyone is healthy with no pre-existing conditions. If someone has asthma, certain allergies, diabetes, hemophilia or any one of a large number of conditions, the premium will be a lot closer to $4000 a month than $400. That is if the insurance company doesn't outright deny them coverage.

[n_maher]

Major medical coverage for a family of four is $400 a month or less. If you can't afford $400 a month for health insurance at $40k/yr, you need to review your priorities.

That's a pretty huge generalization and would depend on your location and local cost of living. I can tell you this, in my neck of the woods $40k w/ a family of 4 would put you at or near the poverty line and that $400 would be the better part of 20% of your take home pay. Figure another $400 a month for food (minimum), another $1000 for rent and it's not hard to imagine that you'd be living on the bleeding edge where one unexpected bill would spell doom.

$40k is barely a living wage for a family these days, the gov'ts estimation of what constitutes poverty and the middle class is laughable.

[grawk]

Yes, don't wait to get coverage until after you find out you have a problem.

[tyrion]

Yes, don't wait to get coverage until after you find out you have a problem.

What if you didn't know about the condition because your selfish parents bought a BMW instead of health insurance?

Now I feel bad, we've dragged Nate into this.

[aerius]

Yes, don't wait to get coverage until after you find out you have a problem.

That doesn't help when one is born with a medical condition, such as the ones I mentioned.

[grawk]

Even in portsmouth, it's possible to get a 3br apartment for $700. It's tough being in the lower middle class, but it's doable. It's priorities, and unfortunately, lots of people make poor choices. I am not that far removed from living on significantly less than $20k/yr. I know the compromises involved. Many of my friends are still there.

[JBLoudG20]

That's a pretty huge generalization and would depend on your location and local cost of living. I can tell you this, in my neck of the woods $40k w/ a family of 4 would put you at or near the poverty line and that $400 would be the better part of 20% of your take home pay. Figure another $400 a month for food (minimum), another $1000 for rent and it's not hard to imagine that you'd be living on the bleeding edge where one unexpected bill would spell doom.

$40k is barely a living wage for a family these days, the gov'ts estimation of what constitutes poverty and the middle class is laughable.

Bingo. I'm from 'rich' CT. The government poverty line is a joke, with the cost of living here.

As for healthcare: Currently my parents have to pay to cover a family of 3, just so the two of them are covered. I am ineligible as a full time student (even though before their rule change I would have been covered for 2 more years), and I am on a laughable student plan. If anything were to happen to me, I'd be fucked bill wise, not to mention how expensive my plan is. So my family has to pay for care for 4 people (although my student plan costs even MORE than it would if I were on the normal plan), and we get equivalent coverage for 2. I can also say that my coverage alone, runs about 350/month. Sure we have the money to cover it and live happily, but I think it swrong that we are getting raped by our coverage.