Political discussion, including, but not limited to, the Iraq war and Bush II

[tyrion]

So far at least less than half of the voting population believes in universal health care, thank god. I don't think that'll change in the next election cycle

Mike,

As to what's good about our current system, ask the canadians that come here for health care. What's good is that we have the best and the brightest working on making things better. Unfortunately, not everyone gets the best coverage, but on the whole, people mostly get what they need, at the very least. Ask the english and the canadians if they'd like the option of paying for care out of pocket if given the chance.

I'd argue that your profession is at least partly to blame for the state of health insurance in this country, not to mention the cost of health care. Medical malpractice has gotten out of hand, driving good doctors out of business for lack of the ability to pay insurance premiums. Doctors are stuck spending more time covering their asses rather than trying to cure people. But I'm going to bed, so this is a debate that will be for another time. And not canjam

There is research that suggests that the increase in premiums is not related to malpractice awards. Rather it's that the insurance companies are making less on the investment side so premiums are raised by the insurance companies. Remember, it's not the lawyers that are sitting on the juries giving all this money away. I will tell you that I know first hand that we would not bring a frivilous malpractice case because they cost too much. I know plenty of good doctors down here that have a very nice lifestyle and complain to me about their premiums and then drive away in their $100,000 Mercedes on the way to their $2 million dollar home. I don't begrudge them the Mercedes or the home but don't complain to me that your premiums are too high. Doctors should cover their asses because what they do can hurt people if done wrong. The problem with healthcare cost is not defensive medicine, it's a lack of efficiency in the way we pay for healthcare.

the best Imitrex is the injectable form (works almost immediately), though i'm out of the autoinjectors right now, so i have to make due with a vial and a syringe, which kind of sucks. it's a bad mix with Prozac, though, which i found out the hard way).

I've had migraine most of my life. Imitrex was a life saver. The injectable is far faster acting than the pill. I recently asked my doc to Rx the injectable in addition to the pills.

[grawk]

for individual patients, there is also a problem with the ways the hospitals and HMOs interact. the HMO suggests a low price, the hospital suggests a higher one, and they agree somewhere in the middle. unfortunately, that higher price the hospital suggests is often unmodified for patients without health coverage. it's pretty vicious.

My experience is if you don't have insurance, most medical providers and hospitals are glad to negotiate a better deal, too.

[grawk]

Things may be different in florida than in pennsylvania. Pennsylvania allows jurisdiction shopping, so all the cases happen in philadelphia, where the prospective jurors love sticking it to the rich doctors. And I've never met an OB/GYN who drives a $100k car.

[guzziguy]

My experience is if you don't have insurance, most medical providers and hospitals are glad to negotiate a better deal, too.

Probably true, but IMO paying for health care shouldn't be akin to buying a used car.

My best man is the head of the Radiology Department at the University of Arizona. The UA medical center recently changed their policies so that the regular price is the same as their negotiated prices. They realized that if the person didn't have health insurance, they probably couldn't pay for the high prices anyway.

[guzziguy]

<snip> And I've never met an OB/GYN who drives a $100k car.

These days it seems mostly to be the plastic surgeons with the really nice cars.

[Jon L]

social liberalism does not mean welfare and free healthcare, at least in the conventional poli-sci meaning of the term, it means that each individual is free to do what they will, extending up to, but not beyond, the tip of their nose. what you are describing, as social liberalism, is mild socialism. not necessarily a bad thing, but not social liberalism.

Well, arguments are bound to ensue in these discussions. I disagree with your definition of "social liberalism" as the "conventional" definition. I agree more with the following statement, which I easily found and quote from, of all places Wikipedia

"Classical liberalism, believes that the provision of negative freedom, that is freedom from coercion, constitutes liberty, and is therefore, a strictly laissez-faire philosophy. Social liberalism however sees a role for the State in providing positive liberty for individuals. [5] They believe that lack of positive rights, such as economic opportunity, education, health-care, and so on can be considered to be threats to liberty.[2]

Social liberals, therefore, support a mixed economy of mainly private enterprise with some state provided or guaranteed public services. In the process, it expects legitimate governments to provide a basic level of welfare or workfare, health and education, supported by taxation,"

[grawk]

Probably true, but IMO paying for health care shouldn't be akin to buying a used car.

Why not? Why not negotiate for your best interest? It's the whole "I shouldn't have to negotiate for health care" thing that got us in the mess we're in now. If you don't negotiate (and that doesn't always just mean about price, they can make effective but better value decisions when treating you if they know cost is a concern), then they will choose the latest greatest options to treat you, which are often cost prohibitive.

[grawk]

Be careful citing wikipedia when discussing academics. Wikipedia is a very politicized source.

[humanflyz]

This is a question for Reks:

So do you reject any and all notions of distributive justice?

This is not meant to provoke, but I'm simply curious.

[Jon L]

I know plenty of good doctors down here that have a very nice lifestyle and complain to me about their premiums and then drive away in their $100,000 Mercedes on the way to their $2 million dollar home. ..The problem with healthcare cost is not defensive medicine, it's a lack of efficiency in the way we pay for healthcare.

Heck, maybe I need to move to your area to practice. Seriously, here in CA, I work with and know dozens of MD's. Practically none drive 100K MB and live in 2 Mil houses. Those who do are the older ones who made their money before the HMO's and have dozens-year-old private practices that basically run themselves.

The newer docs (like myself) often live "comfortably" with common cars in "nice" homes unless you are fee-for-service such as Plastic surgery, Dermatology, even Dentistry. I can't even afford a decent electrostat amp, for God's sake!

Inefficient system of course is a huge problem, but you underestimate the costs of defensive medicine. I and *EVERY* doc I know order tons of tests, CT's, MRI's fully knowing they are not really needed in many cases to cover ourselves, and these costs translate and add up to humongous numbers. I see these costs as a huge portion of the Pie graph every time I attend the med group financial meetings.

[ojnihs]

i do not know a single doctor who drives a 100k car or lives in a 2 mil house. only one i know who lives in a big ass house is a husband-wife who are a radiologist and a dermatologist.

[hungrych]

I leave for one day and this is what happens?

[Smeggy]

I leave for one day and this is what happens?

Yep, fastest thread growth in history. Unfortunately it's about politics and politics sucks ass so I'm staying away from this thread.

[tyrion]

I leave for one day and this is what happens?

You can probably blame me.

[909]

by the way, how did this whole thing start? i just kinda jumped in for shits and giggles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mOa3sXjqE4

the spark that ignited into this spin-off thread.

it sucks on both sides, patient and doctor. i still oppose federal healthcare.

big insurance companies get special negotiated rates for their members, but uninsured pay full price.

here's a real world example...

my dad had surgery at cedar sinai where the doc used the state-of-the-art da Vinci surgical system.

$70,000 (regular price)

$5,000 (insurer paid)

[at least that's what my dad thought after he got the bill breakdown.]

[909]

mods please move my post above here and delete this one

[909]

[ame]

[/ame]

[aardvark baguette]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onnmXHsXfaU&feature=related

[deepak]

Merged the remaining posts from "Slow Forum" to the political discussion thread.

[deepak]

Some great arguments in this thread, and I have to side with Mike on this one, the war is pointless. Maybe I feel more strongly on this because a few of my friends have had to do ROTC through their college since they otherwise wouldn't be able to afford it and I've heard from them first hand about Iraq (and one of the partners in my dad's old practice went to med school through the army and thus serves two weeks every year which he dreads). I don't particularly care if my reasoning is sound or unsound, but it's a damn shame when people in their twenties are dieing for a cause they don't believe in.

RA? Man I'm sorry, how long have you had it? My ex-girlfriend had RA first, then it changed to lupus.

Sorry to hear about that David. And sorry about mentioning Liebman Sachs in that other thread, I can see how that came off as brisk \

[JimP]

Maybe off-topic here (in off-topic forum \), but from outsider's perspective, things I'm truly (seriously) grateful for the USA:

1. baseball (love it, not withstanding the current steroids scandals which sucks)

2. hotdogs (I think it's american invention but correct me if I'm wrong; I've had the pleasure to enjoy in Yankee Stadium, Fenway Park, etc, so it links to #1)

3. jazz music (too numerous to list by artists)

4. grateful dead

5. tom waits

I can't think of anything else right now; I'll sleep on it and post an addendum

(p.s.: to keep on topic, Hilary would rank like one million (x one million))

[GPH]

I'm in Quebec where universal health care is in application and it works great for people with serious illnesses. My dad went to the hospital last year for peritonitis and he was treated in less than two hours and stayed at the hospital for two weeks. The problem with universal health care is that a lot of people abuse the system and go to the hospital for stupid things because they have nothing better to do. Because of that, people who are not considered urgent cases tend to wait a lot. A couple of years ago, I had some rashes on my skin due to an alimentary allergy and I had to wait about 6 hours at the emergency because it was not considered "important".

[grawk]

A couple of years ago, I had some rashes on my skin due to an alimentary allergy and I had to wait about 6 hours at the emergency because it was not considered "important".

I'd have to agree. Why did you go to an emergency room for a rash from a food allergy?

[GPH]

I'd have to agree. Why did you go to an emergency room for a rash from a food allergy?

Because it was 11 PM, I had big red rashes all over my body and I wasn't breathing normally.

[aardvark baguette]

And in Univ. Health care, the Doctors end up getting paid less, which long term means fewer doctors. Kind of like the OBGYN in America, that has deteriorated due to the multitude of lawsuits against doctors. Now no one wants to go into that field.

I think the main fault with universal health care is its high dose of "The law of unintended consequences".