electrostatic sound

[spritzer]

Pah! In 4 years I could make my own pair using nought but cling film, bunsen mesh, double sided sticky tape and coathangers.

Well you would need some pleather for the earpads but I get your point...

[Duggeh]

I've never seen McGuyver. I'm sure if I had there are a series of SG-1 jokes that would make more sense.

[Dusty Chalk]

Pah! In 4 years I could make my own pair using nought but cling film, bunsen mesh, double sided sticky tape and coathangers.

No time like the present...(to get started)...

[Duggeh]

Oh I couldn't possibly start on the Omega clone until I've finished the Phonodome.

[brat]

After 65 hours burn-in the Omegas began to show what they are capable of. Their speed is incredible. I love it. The detail and instrument/vocal separation are better than any other headphone I've listened to.

BUT there are some problems and I'm inerested if further burn-in can ressolve them. I'm not sure whether these are insufficient burn-in issues or a matter of proper amplificaion.

1. At more complex signals like loud orchestral performances or all heavy metal/hard rock music the sound becomes muddy and mellow. Opposite to what it supposes to be. It makes such kinds of music unlistenable on this system.

2. I still can't accept the unnatural peak in the treble. And there is no any tendence of smoothening.

3. The soundstage is much smaller according to the k701. Is there any chance to get wider?

4. A "headphony" coloration at some vocals and solo instruments is noticeable.

[spritzer]

If the sound becomes muddy it is the amp running out of steam. The larger the excursion of the diaphragm the more power the amp needs to feed the stators to control the movement. The bass and treble are harder to drive then the midrange so thats where the sound suffers the most. Not even the Blue Hawaii in stock form can fully control the diaphragm when the going gets tough so the 727 has no chance in hell of pulling it off.

A treble spike is not something I'd ever accuse the SR-007 of. They are so damn smooth that the HE90 is harsh by comparison. I would look elsewhere for that part, the source perhaps?

The soundstage is supposed to be small by design or rather is it supposed to be just right and reflect what is on the recording. The other great ESP's like the HE90 and SR-? both have a larger soundstage but can't match the precision of the SR-007 neither can they do soundstage layering.

[brat]

If the sound becomes muddy it is the amp running out of steam. The larger the excursion of the diaphragm the more power the amp needs to feed the stators to control the movement. The bass and treble are harder to drive then the midrange so thats where the sound suffers the most. Not even the Blue Hawaii in stock form can fully control the diaphragm when the going gets tough so the 727 has no chance in hell of pulling it off.

You confirm my conclusions for the nature of the electrostatic amplification. I must try some well built DIY KGSS. There was a hope I can avoid this.

[spritzer]

sure they are.

He might also just be getting used to the sound of the SR-007. They fall into the same category as Quad ESL since neither of them is trying to impress so first impressions are often only lukewarm but they grow on you really quickly.

You confirm my conclusions for the nature of the electrostatic amplification. I must try some well built DIY KGSS. There was a hope I can avoid this.

A stock KGSS won't cut it either. A better PSU is a good idea and a much bugger +/-15v supply is a necessity plus it's also a good idea to bias the output stage even higher.

[brat]

... At more complex signals like loud orchestral performances or all heavy metal/hard rock music the sound becomes muddy and mellow. Opposite to what it supposes to be. It makes such kinds of music unlistenable on this system...

To add something interesting to this part: No matter wich recording I listen to, if there is a vocal part in the song it remains smooth, clear with well defined highs and pronounciation. The vocals stay like applications on the muddy indtrumental background. What could be the explanation? Sometimes this fact causes me to think if the omegas' reproduction of electric guitars ( for example ) is more precise and this is how they must sound. What if we are accustomed to the more harsh, pleasant but incorrect sound of the dynamics?

[dvse]

This is unlikely to be helpful, but check that xlr/rca switch at the back is in the correct position. Because of the way it's implemented it's possible to get distorted sound even if it's not set right.

As for electric guitars, they do sound different (cleaner) on elctrostatic headphones, although most recordings are done by putting a microphone next to the stack in the first place...

[Dusty Chalk]

Actually electrostatics take longer to burn-in than dynamic drivers. At least, that's true with speakers, I could only presume it's similar with earspeakers.

[luvdunhill]

Actually electrostatics take longer to burn-in than dynamic drivers. At least, that's true with speakers, I could only presume it's similar with earspeakers.

right, due to the whole charging thing... but, definitely nothing on a geological scale (i.e. K701) I would say that the ESP-950 took a week or so, as my replacement drivers were brand new.

[Dusty Chalk]

I think the theory goes: it has to do with the fact that the "driver" traverses less distance per revolution. Just as multi-driver speakers like the pseudo line sources (Nearfield Pipedreams, Genesis, etc.) take longer to burn in as well.

[spritzer]

Actually electrostatics take longer to burn-in than dynamic drivers. At least, that's true with speakers, I could only presume it's similar with earspeakers.

I've compared new and well used electrostatic diaphragms under a microscope (from the same batch) and the tiny wrinkles get mostly ironed out with use so the sound should change over time but it's nothing colossal after the first hour or so. The drivers are always tested after assembly so we never get to hear a truly fresh set unless you DIY them. If there is some change after 50 hours I would say that the amp is still running in not the phones.

[Dusty Chalk]

Okay.

[catscratch]

An excessively mellow sound is not a characteristic of electrostatic headphones in general. The SR-404 is anything but mellow, and neither is the SR-001. There may be a lack of tactile slam and "bite," whatever that is, but the SR-404's main strength was to take extremely complex music and dissect it all into its constituent parts no matter how fast or hectic things got. I listen to a lot of death metal, some of it pretty insane (Nile, Cryptopsy, and the like) and the SR-404 was fantastic with it. Even with blast beats going at full speed you could still hear the texture of every drum thwack and every cymbal stroke on Nile's "Black Seeds of Vengeance" with the SR-404 and it was anything but mellow.

In fact, this ability to resolve even very fast, dense, and complex music into its component sounds is the one 'stat quality that I miss the most.

[ilikebananafudge]

Oh wow, sounds like I would like stats. I also listen to some death metal (Nile is great!) and my current shitty rig can't handle the density and layering of the music very well.

[Dusty Chalk]

sure that isn't just charging? i can buy the diaphragms changing with use (as spritzer posted), but i just don't buy that most of this stuff changes dramatically, or even much at all.

I would categorize charging as different. Yeah, I've heard the charging issues, I would have called that "warm up" rather than "burn in".

Alright, maybe "dramatic" might be overstating things, but it does seem to take a while for what little change to occur, even if it's just a slight smoothing out of the high frequencies. There's a difference between burn-in taking a long time vs. creating a huge difference, I usually try to phrase my descriptions carefully as to when a difference is huge vs. subtle, and whether or not it's significantly audible vs. not.

In fact, a lot of times, it's not significant. I can count on one hand the times it has been significant that I have heard (bass on silver cables, the bass in a certain pair of headphones, several components [including a set of tubes] becoming smoother, and...uh...not much more that I can remember).

Does that make sense?

[spritzer]

It can be a combination of charging and amp warmup. My Blue Hawaii is quite a bit better after its been on for about 2-3 hours and the same goes for every one of my amps. My SRM-212 is on 24/7 and the same goes for the T1 and all source components. Charging is more of an issue if the phones haven't been used for a long time. It took my SR-007 once 6 hours to reach its normal sound after I hadn't touched them for some months. The bass was bloated and hollow and there was not much treble at all.

[dc]

Ey spritzer you seen/heard this baby?

Hopefully your Japanese is better than mine but I see D I Y in its description here: http://staxt2.hp.infoseek.co.jp/6BX7.htm

I think this is the schematic for it:

[spritzer]

I know about that amp but I've never heard it. It should be pretty good with those tubes and all that Tango iron... The design was posted in some Japanese hi-fi magazine and it is rather popular over there. The schematic is also at the site where there are simulation tests of many Stax amps.

Gotta go finish this SR-Sigma 404... ... the Lambda portion of the project is up and running...

[brat]

I didn't listen to my dynamic setup for about two weeks. Since then I began to like the Omegas.

But today I decided to compare the two. The result is explicit superiority of the k701 system.

In every way.

At every music.

No compromise.

More realism.

More cleanness.

Acoustics sound more natural.

Voices are REAL.

Orchestral music at the omegas is muddy. This is the only word that can characterize it. Muddy.

So can anyone direct me: What's wrong? A deffective pair? A deffective amp? More burn-in (about 70 hours untill now) ? Insufficient voltage? I use 220-110V transformer. Can these 7 volts missing do such a damage?

This is not an issue of personal preferences of a sound signature over another. There is something wrong.

[humanflyz]

That means you just like the K701s better; nothing wrong with that.

[jinp6301]

I think you should give me your stat system for about 20 years so I can check if its defective

[spritzer]

There is a possibility that the phones are defective (known issue) or that you simply like the K701 more. Nothing wrong with that as you wouldn't be the first not to like the SR-007 or stats in general.