blessingx Posted December 14, 2008 Report Posted December 14, 2008 Thanks for much guys for your tests. I really appreciate it and shows again what a great community we've got. I did some more from my end also. Although not a complete fresh install, I did create a new test account. I few installs (like Maestro) were at the all users level, but I tend to install on user level for nearly all apps. With the new account and iStats only running the fans held at ~1500. With Duet plugged in and iStats and Maestro only running, the fan slowly rose (about half as quick as on main user where it was near immediate) and plateaued at ~5500 rpm, before settling in at ~4500 after 7-8 minutes. Unfortunately as soon as I tried to do anything else (surf net with Safari or stream radio through iTunes), the max of 6200 hit and held again. So ~1500 rpm base, ~3000 more for simply plugging in the Duet and ~1700 more (maxed) for doing anything. Not that this test is in anyway conclusive, but it makes me more slightly more unlikely it's a driver corruption or conflict issue and instead a power architecture one. If indeed that's the case, I'm not sure how wide a production issue it is, but again this is an early first gen 2006 model MacBook (what do people say about "Gen A" Apple products? ). The CPU was an upgrade (2.0, but even base was well above the Apogee min requirements), and is the Core Duo, not Core 2 Duo model. RAM maxed at 2GB. As I'm not likely to upgrade my laptop in the next year, now I have to decide about dealing with noise and potential hardware hazards, move back to the Pico or use occasionally and keep for the future. Hmmm. Again though thanks guys.
Salt Peanuts Posted December 14, 2008 Report Posted December 14, 2008 blessingx - do you by any chance have a powered FireWire hub? I'm wondering if the fan speed would still increase if the Duet is connected to a firewire hub that has its own power supply thus negating the need to draw power from MacBook's firewire.
blessingx Posted December 14, 2008 Report Posted December 14, 2008 No, but that's an interesting theory. I assume you mean 'decrease'? I may swing by Fry's and pick up one and test. Likely won't be until after Christmas, but thanks for suggesting the option. I'll report back.
grawk Posted December 14, 2008 Report Posted December 14, 2008 It makes sense to me that drawing 12v of current to power the duet would increase the heat in your laptop.
blessingx Posted December 15, 2008 Report Posted December 15, 2008 True enough, but how much additional heat? For a product made for laptops (I think we can assume from the Firewire powering) and primarily designed for recording, maxing out fan spins and resulting noise is potentially a concern, no? Course this 'issue' may only affect a small number of models. Still for a product introduced about a year after my model was created - and the MacBook/MacBook Pro differentiation was far less pronounced than it is now - not to mention specs far above the minimum required, I'm surprised of this problem. Still we can probably assume most Duet users are on MacBook Pros and they do have 85w v. MacBooks 60w AC adapters so they do have a different power architecture. Oh well.
ph0rk Posted December 15, 2008 Report Posted December 15, 2008 more juice going through the laptop means it pulls more from the wall. Perhaps a stand like the rain m-stand would help? (with my MBP the fans never come on in my office, even when running statistical models or some hardcore computer vs computer chess action to run down the battery. both cpu's pegged at 100%)
grawk Posted December 15, 2008 Report Posted December 15, 2008 I'm not sure why you think the fan running is a concern. As long as the laptop doesn't overheat, there's no risk other than a few decibels of noise. It's an annoyance with open headphones, but that's not really the target market for the duet, and even then, you'll only hear it if there's no actual music playing.
blessingx Posted December 15, 2008 Report Posted December 15, 2008 I'm not sure why you think the fan running is a concern. As long as the laptop doesn't overheat, there's no risk other than a few decibels of noise. It's an annoyance with open headphones, but that's not really the target market for the duet, and even then, you'll only hear it if there's no actual music playing.Well, perhaps I'm being a bit paranoid. Thing is I don't actually know what the fans would ideally run at to keep a constant temperature, I only know they climb to max and stay. I suppose I should test at long period of times to see if the temp stabilizes or eventually overheats, but as I mentioned, a concern would also be the fan life-time (and what happens after) running max constantly. Can't say I've ever had a laptop fan go out, but have several desktops. As for the more important noise issue, I agree open phones aren't the target audience though the more problematic nearby recording mic may be. And the fan noise is quite noticeable even with music playing. Not some, played loudly, but it's audible with most music I've listened lately with all my open phones (and what's so bad about wanting a near silent computer for listening? ). Those are my concerns with my setup, but again I'm not hitting Apogee hard on this because few may be in my position. And again I hope this isn't coming off as bitching, just surprised this isn't more reported (besides a few Apple support pages) is all.
ph0rk Posted December 15, 2008 Report Posted December 15, 2008 I expect the majority of macbook users don't use firewire. Of course, apple has gone and made that decision for you with the new macbooks. The fans in my macbook pro sound like a jet engine when fully spun up - if the macbook is anything like it it is much louder than you'd expect from a laptop.
n_maher Posted December 15, 2008 Report Posted December 15, 2008 In my opinion, and I'm pretty picky, the Macbook fans aren't loud at all even when fully spun up. I game on my Macbook (to the extent possible) and when it winds up it's still barely audible without headphones on. With even open headphones on I can't hear a thing.
blessingx Posted December 15, 2008 Report Posted December 15, 2008 I know the Core 2 Duos handle temps a bit better than Core Duos, but to put it in perspective - mine when fully cranked at work often causes people to look over the cube wall to see what is going on (assuming I'm watching something funny on YouTube). And that's on top of the environmental noise of the two full-tower server fans running in the cube across the isle. This isn't a minor thing only detectable between tracks. Anyway this is blowing up a bit more than I expected, but I think my experience is far closer to ph0rks than yours (and the only time I experience it besides plugging in the Duet is after watching a few Flash based vids back to back or encoding h.264 - that latter of which I supposed indicates the computer won't fail after running full blast for hours). Then again I don't encode for hours a day every day.
n_maher Posted December 15, 2008 Report Posted December 15, 2008 Yeah, mine is a C2D version. I don't have a Duet to hook up so I can't do any direct comparison for you.
ph0rk Posted December 15, 2008 Report Posted December 15, 2008 Did anyone ever make an actual 0404 usb to duet comparison w/ just the line outs (bypassing the onboard amp for both)?
archosman Posted December 15, 2008 Report Posted December 15, 2008 The fans in my macbook pro sound like a jet engine when fully spun up - if the macbook is anything like it it is much louder than you'd expect from a laptop. Not mine. 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo w/4 gig of ram.
ph0rk Posted December 15, 2008 Report Posted December 15, 2008 Not mine. 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo w/4 gig of ram. Mine is a 2.4 santa rosa also with 4 gigs of ram. It takes a moderate to heavy load - gaming will do it in either osx or xp. Fans make it over 5500 RPM. A well ventilated room or conductive tabletop will prevent it, however. Come to think of it, it might require heavy graphics lifting, not just cpu intensive tasks. So, two separate computer vs computer chess games -and- a game of plasma pong, or pretty much any recent DirectX 9.0 game in windows. 3-4k RPM isn't really all that loud, though.
archosman Posted December 16, 2008 Report Posted December 16, 2008 Mine is a 2.4 santa rosa also with 4 gigs of ram. It takes a moderate to heavy load - gaming will do it in either osx or xp. Fans make it over 5500 RPM. A well ventilated room or conductive tabletop will prevent it, however. Come to think of it, it might require heavy graphics lifting, not just cpu intensive tasks. So, two separate computer vs computer chess games -and- a game of plasma pong, or pretty much any recent DirectX 9.0 game in windows. 3-4k RPM isn't really all that loud, though. I'm cheating... I have a metal plate that has 2 fans underneath that I put the laptop on. USB powered. Stays pretty cool that way. Might have to try a test without the cooling plate.
ph0rk Posted December 16, 2008 Report Posted December 16, 2008 I'm cheating... I have a metal plate that has 2 fans underneath that I put the laptop on. USB powered. Stays pretty cool that way. Might have to try a test without the cooling plate. It really is something else when they go full blast.
kirkwall Posted December 16, 2008 Report Posted December 16, 2008 My MB Pro is also a first-gen model and with earlier firmware tended to heat up very fast and very noisily. This was partly traced to a battery problem, and with its (crap) new battery and with a notebook stand/tablet it's been whole lot quieter. I have a Duet and it works fine with the MBP, though I tend to run it in powersaving mode when listening. If you haven't tried this already, you might plug the MB to A/C and then remove the battery and see how it goes. One of those notebook pads might help -- though my MacBook melted the first one I had. Liquified it, like so much mayo in the sun. The metal-plate option looks good to me. It sucks being an Apple beta-tester. good luck, k
archosman Posted December 16, 2008 Report Posted December 16, 2008 It really is something else when they go full blast. I will say this... I used to have that problem... a lot of times when just Firefox was open. I recently went out and bought a 320 gig drive to replace the 160gig. Cloned it before installing and now I don't nearly have that problem anymore.
mulveling Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 I've had this Duet (with Nate's breakout cable) for a couple weeks now and I'm still really pleasantly surprised by its sound quality as a DAC. I'll be the first to admit I'm NO digital source connoisseur. I can place all the digital sources I've heard simply into one of three coarse categories, without wanting for further distinction/categorization: terrible, tolerable, and good. This duet is squarely in the GOOD categorization. Really underscores the value of this unit when compared to other "good" digital sources I've thrown buckets of money at, ala G08 - or maybe that just underscores the excessive cost of the latter! Hell this super-nice 24" iMac PLUS the Duet still cost less total... It's proving to be a really overachieving work rig paired up with the toaster SDS and HD650. I bet a nice 2nd hand M3 or Gilmore amp could sub for the SDS and still be a stinkin' nice rig at a very reasonable overall cost.
Icarium Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 You'd probably guess right... while I miss the old SDS the gilmore lite is definitely holding its own.
mulveling Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 You'd probably guess right... while I miss the old SDS the gilmore lite is definitely holding its own. Yeah, I wish the older variants (Headamp V1, V2, V2se, Reference) came up FS more often, I might be tempted to grab one (cheap-ish) at some point and see if I can downgrade further to free up even more funds
grawk Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 I'd be surprised if a reference was ever priced cheap enough to count as a downgrade
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