Vinyl Setup Advice Needed

[n_maher]

So I've been listening off and on to my Thorens TD160 and so far I've got to say that I'm pretty unimpressed. Now, I know full well that I've probably got a crap cart on there and that it's not setup right but before investing in at least a Mid-Fi cart (you can expect a thread on that one too) I figured it'd be a good idea to at least get what I've got setup right. I'm not averse to spending a little money on this project but if someone tells me that I need hundreds of dollars of kit to setup my $200 vinyl rig that'll be the end of it.

So what's the sane way of going about this?

*paging postjack, paging postjack*

[luvdunhill]

I'd invest in a few setup tools. see here:

http://www.turntablebasics.com/

I'd get the alignment / overhang mirror and a bubble level.

Next, perhaps a stylus force gauge. These are nice, perhaps you can talk the seller down a bit:

http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/cls.pl?anlgcart&1201789984

As for a budget cart, I'd recommend a Denon DL-103:

http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/cls.pl?anlgcart&1203348006

and a Bugle phono stage kit:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hagerman-Technology-Bugle-Phono-Preamplifier-Kit_W0QQitemZ190186910346QQihZ009QQcategoryZ12050QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

yup, I recommended hundreds of dollars but you'll get a great cartridge and a great phono stage out of it.

[aerius]

http://www.vacuumstate.com/white_papers/index.htm

Download the PDF files, print them out, and enjoy. Worked great for my turntable.

[jp11801]

I really like the mofo et up tools and there is a digital scale on audiogon I from hong kong that was dirt cheap, less than half what the analog shops sell it for

[postjack]

Here is a Baerwald arc protractor for Thorens tables. This should be the absolutely best and easiest way to align your cartridge:

http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml (scroll to the very bottom for your protractor, I tried to link the PDF file directly but it would not allow me)

I'm not sure what tonearm you have on your TD160, but chances are it is stock. If you flip over the second page of the above PDF it lists the tonearms that are compatible with the protractor. It needs to have a mounting distance of exactly 215.6mm to work with the cartridge. Also on the back are excellent if slightly off-english instructions for using the protractor. Basically with this you just make sure the needle runs consistently from X to X on the arc line without deviation, and this will adjust your overhang. Then place the needle on the little grid there, and align the cartridge body with the grid lines (this is assuming the cantilever is parallel with the sides of the cartridge; if not, compensate accordingly). After adjusting within the grid once again check the overhang.

You'll also want to get the tracking force right. Without a tool like the Shure Stylus Force Gauge, you'll have to adjust this by eye. I'm not exactly sure how your tonearm is setup, but it should have a counterweight on the back of the tonearm. Turn this in either direction until the tonearm floats freely and evenly in the air. The "evenly" part is what is the pain in the ass to measure with your eye, which is why a stylus force gauge comes in handy . Then dial in this point at 0 on your indicator there, and set your VTF from there according to the cartridge manufacturers recommended limits (typically between 1.25g and 2.0g).

Of course during this whole process you should have your anti-skate set at zero. Some tables (VPI) don't even have antiskate. Luckily the TD160 appears to be a popular table, so you should be able to look up this kind of stuff live on the infernet: http://www.theanalogdept.com/thorens_td_160_dept_.htm. Looks like lots of good stuff there. On my technics the manual suggest setting the anti-skate to the same number as the tracking force. I think this is generally the case with most tables.

Final adjustment is tonearm height. Typically height should be adjusted so that the cartridge body runs parallel to the surface of a record.

Doing all this you should notice a significant improvement in sound! Let us know how it works out.

mod edit - fixed links

[postjack]

oh yeah, and make sure your table is level before doing any of the above.

[n_maher]

Thanks guys, time to do a bit of research based on those links. And I've already got a Bugle, hopefully I'll be posting pictures today as I finally figured out how I want to mount it.

[Dusty Chalk]

I concur with the advice that says, start by just getting the setup right and the table level -- that alone will make a huge difference.

[luvdunhill]

I'm working on a Mouser part list and mods for this project, if you're interested:

http://www.vinylengine.com/diy-strobe.shtml

I'd recommend waiting until after I order the parts and find out that something doesn't fit With primo stuff, I'm looking at $15 total

[The Expanding Man]

I found this to be a great help in turntable set up:

http://www.needledoctor.com/Hi-Fi-News-Test-Record?sc=2&category=438

I have the Thorens 160S with an ADC tonearm, and am very pleased with the sound.

[stevenkelby]

All good advice.

How are you cleaning your vinyl? Don't underestimate the importance of a clean groove. The KAB USA EV-1 is the best $150 I spent in my thousands of dollars set up. IMO, a vacuum machine is the only way to go.

My friend bought a few LPs at the same time as me, we both got Aqualung, Take Five and Kind of Blue together. Mine I vacuumed, his he used a Discwasher D4 brush and fluid.

These are new LPs with only a few plays but the difference is obvious on both his and my system. He has an EV-1 on order now.

Also, where are you putting the TT? Makes a big difference too. I use a rigid wall shelf (in stone walls) and spikes.

[postjack]

I vacuum clean all my new vinyl before the first play. I prefer the Disc Doctor brushes and fluid.

Buying a vacuum cleaning machine seems painful at first, but basically after you do it you are set for at least twenty years. At least its seems that most folks who bought Nitty Gritty machines in the 70s are still using the same ones.

[stevenkelby]

I use the AI fluids but I think they all do a similar job, it's the vacuuming the suspended crap out of the groove that gives the results.

New discs have so much shit on them, you can see it in bright light, all greasy with release compound and god knows what. That stuffs not going near my needle!

I only do each disc once too, after that it's just a carbon brush and zero stat.

[postjack]

I use the AI fluids but I think they all do a similar job, it's the vacuuming the suspended crap out of the groove that gives the results.

New discs have so much shit on them, you can see it in bright light, all greasy with release compound and god knows what. That stuffs not going near my needle!

I only do each disc once too, after that it's just a carbon brush and zero stat.

You and I are very similar in our washing philosophies. Really I figure one fluid is about the same as the next, but I do like my Disc Doctor brushes, because they are easy to hold and are soft & wide. I do use the Disc Doctor method of applying the fluid in small circles while rotating the record on my machine's spindle. Then I flip the LP and suck the fluid off with the vacuum, typically making one slow, full rotation which takes about 30 seconds.

And amen to keeping factory gunk off my needle!

And I haven't yet found it necessary to reclean a record, since I always return them to their lined paper sleeves and album covers after play. I just use the carbon fiber brush to get off any dust or hairs that show up. I haven't yet purchased a Zerostat gun though. I don't have many problems with static.

[luvdunhill]

I use a Nitty Gritty 2.5 FI with Pure 2 cleaning fluid. I've owned the budget and second from budget VPI cleaners as well as the Disc Doctor manual brushes (i.e. no vac, air-drying) and fluid. For me, the NG and Pure 2 was a huge upgrade over the VPI cleaners and various other solutions. The real comparison between all these cleaning methods was playing a "clean record". My Zyx uses a line-contact stylus (6 x 35 um).The amazing thing is how much crap it can pull from the grooves even after the VPI or manual methods.

I agree, the less cleaning the better!