Accuphase DP800/DC801 or Esoteric P-05/D05?

[Elephas]

I'm currently using an Accuphase DP-500 and Chord DAC64 MkII. I've had the Accuphase for four months and the Chord for more than a year. Both are Red Book-only. Most of the time I listen through iTunes or foobar, using the digital outputs of an RME HDSP 9632 sound card.

Playing a CD on the DP-500 sounds better than its digital input fed by the RME sound card. However, I think the RME -> Chord is roughly equivalent to CD on the DP-500, with each doing some things better and some things worse. It is very close. This was disappointing to me, because I expected CD on the Accuphase to sound better.

I really like the convenience of PC-as-source and currently have over 42,000 tracks stored on a 2TB NAS unit. About 75% is lossless.

My thinking is, if I'm going to go to the trouble of picking out a CD, taking it out of its case and putting it in a CD player, it should sound better than the RME -> DAC system.

Which brings us to the poll question. Given similar pricing and a choice between the Accuphase DP800/DC801 or the Esoteric P-05/D05, which would you choose?

Both are SACD transports + DAC two-box combos. At the moment I have a grand total of 12 SACDs, due to never having owned an SACD player. I think SACD as a format is a dead-end, but there are still some being issued and I'm willing to buy some more. Playing SACDs, especially if the sound is significantly better than the PC-source, will provide a good reason to spin a disc instead of selecting a playlist. So I'm telling myself.

[Elephas]

oops

[Dusty Chalk]

I haven't heard either. I'm afraid very few people have heard both. Do you have the ability to audition both? In your home system?

[spritzer]

Just buy an APL player and be done with it. You can have a digital input, volume control and a universal player that plays any of the old formats. I don't quite know what the price and features of the newest players but you should drop Alex a line. The guy who sold me my APL 3910 compared it to a dCS P8i and ARC Ref3 line stage (the APL has a built in volume control) the last day before he shipped it out and the other gear was blown away in every aspect. That's 25k$ against a 4k$ player and it's not even the newest version. This was in an email sent to Alex and not me where the seller said he was nuts for selling me the player and he wanted a NWO soon. Now mine is even better with the new AKM 32bit.

[purk]

Just buy an APL player and be done with it. You can have a digital input, volume control and a universal player that plays any of the old formats. I don't quite know what the price and features of the newest players but you should drop Alex a line. The guy who sold me my APL 3910 compared it to a dCS P8i and ARC Ref3 line stage (the APL has a built in volume control) the last day before he shipped it out and the other gear was blown away in every aspect. That's 25k$ against a 4k$ player and it's not even the newest version. This was in an email sent to Alex and not me where the seller said he was nuts for selling me the player and he wanted a NWO soon. Now mine is even better with the new AKM 32bit.

Wonder how the Exemplar and Modwright units measure up to APL stuffs.

[spritzer]

Wonder how the Exemplar and Modwright units measure up to APL stuffs.

Going with those comparisons I've read they don't stand a chance. They are after all simple mods while the APL is a complete rebuild.

not everyone wants heavily modded gear.

Why on earth not? You get much better service and better bang for your buck. The product is never outdated as if there is a new version you just send yours in to be updated. The APL gear isn't really a modification as they are working with Esoteric so i would much rather call it a rebuild, doing things Esoteric could never do and stay profitable.

[purk]

Going with those comparisons I've read they don't stand a chance. They are after all simple mods while the APL is a complete rebuild.

Why on earth not? You get much better service and better bang for your buck. The product is never outdated as if there is a new version you just send yours in to be updated. The APL gear isn't really a modification as they are working with Esoteric so i would much rather call it a rebuild, doing things Esoteric could never do and stay profitable.

I don't think the mods on my Sony is anything but simple (about 7K worth of modifications - I bought the unit for a fraction of the cost though). I would love to hear some of APL creations though.

[PFKMan23]

Why on earth not? You get much better service and better bang for your buck. The product is never outdated as if there is a new version you just send yours in to be updated. The APL gear isn't really a modification as they are working with Esoteric so i would much rather call it a rebuild, doing things Esoteric could never do and stay profitable.

While you may get better bang for your buck, depending on the mod company, I wouldn't necessarily say there there is inherently better service. Depending on what shell your player uses, getting it serviced can be a real pain, assuming there are places that can get or have parts and are willing to service it. So in my mind there are definite drawbacks to owning a modded player. And yes I own one and have heard others.

For my next player that's one of the debates I'm having.

[tom_hankins]

If your wanting to get into SACD and maintain great redbook playback, plus have the added bonus of DVD-A. I would look into the Ayre C-5XE universal player. I have heard many times in many systems and it always made beautiful music.(no matter which format) it is 2-channel only and does no video of any kind. I think its a great buy at either used or new price. Around $4K/$5.5K

[HiWire]

There must be a way to get decent sound out of a single box for less than 10 large. I'm also in favor of factory engineering over modding, but I try to keep an open mind.

[spritzer]

I don't think the mods on my Sony is anything but simple (about 7K worth of modifications - I bought the unit for a fraction of the cost though). I would love to hear some of APL creations though.

Some are more complicated then others. The whole fault with Sony units was a horrible output stage and some questionable things on the dac boards. A normal eXemplar or Modwright mod is a new clock and outputstage with a replacement of a number of components but it's pretty far from a complete redesign. They still do solid work at a lower price and that is to be commended. Some of the other modders... are more questionable.

I can't wait to get mine...

While you may get better bang for your buck, depending on the mod company, I wouldn't necessarily say there there is inherently better service. Depending on what shell your player uses, getting it serviced can be a real pain, assuming there are places that can get or have parts and are willing to service it. So in my mind there are definite drawbacks to owning a modded player. And yes I own one and have heard others.

For my next player that's one of the debates I'm having.

This is certainly true as most modders are spread very thin with a lot of different manufacturers and not very many units of any one kind but APL stopped doing that a long time ago. If my Denon will need to be repaired it will go back to APL. I know they have been replacing drives and all the usual stuff that fails and they will continue to support it. Some of the modders aren't as helpful to say the least...

[Jon L]

This was disappointing to me, because I expected CD on the Accuphase to sound better.

I really like the convenience of PC-as-source and currently have over 42,000 tracks stored on a 2TB NAS unit. About 75% is lossless.

Unfortunately, 99.999% of the time a CD played on a one box CDP is going to sound better than same CDP via digital input, just by the simple fact you're adding on several more (poor) connectors, digital cable, and most of all spdif connection.

This is a dilemma for me as well since I'm PC audio guy. The only way to beat the odds is to do some kind of proprietary connection akin to i-Link, async HDMI/firewire, I2S, possibly the new async USB from Wavelength, maybe even the new Chinese TGLink.

The TGLink is an interesting development since they make soundcards with TGLink output, but I can't seem to find any actual users of the interface \

[grawk]

That said, 86.4% of statistics are made up. And most external dacs are better than the dacs used in consumer gear, therefore, given the two issues here, I'd say you're flat out full of shit.

Unfortunately, 99.999% of the time a CD played on a one box CDP is going to sound better than same CDP via digital input, just by the simple fact you're adding on several more (poor) connectors, digital cable, and most of all spdif connection.

This is a dilemma for me as well since I'm PC audio guy. The only way to beat the odds is to do some kind of proprietary connection akin to i-Link, async HDMI/firewire, I2S, possibly the new async USB from Wavelength, maybe even the new Chinese TGLink.

The TGLink is an interesting development since they make soundcards with TGLink output, but I can't seem to find any actual users of the interface \

[spritzer]

Unfortunately, 99.999% of the time a CD played on a one box CDP is going to sound better than same CDP via digital input, just by the simple fact you're adding on several more (poor) connectors, digital cable, and most of all spdif connection.

This is a dilemma for me as well since I'm PC audio guy. The only way to beat the odds is to do some kind of proprietary connection akin to i-Link, async HDMI/firewire, I2S, possibly the new async USB from Wavelength, maybe even the new Chinese TGLink.

The TGLink is an interesting development since they make soundcards with TGLink output, but I can't seem to find any actual users of the interface \

It's very hard to beat the direct connection to the drive especially if crap like Toslink is used. The upcoming APL DAC will have some propitiatory link to a from a modded transport so if they can do that in some PCI card then it would be awesome. The horrible environment of the PC is still to be dealt with but an external PSU for the PCI card could be an option...

[Dusty Chalk]

Esoteric SA-60 -- new universal player without video.

I thought one of the biggest criticisms of DVD-A is that they're not easily played without the ability to see the menu? I'm curious how they approached that problem.

[humanflyz]

Esoteric SA-60 -- new universal player without video.

I thought one of the biggest criticisms of DVD-A is that they're not easily played without the ability to see the menu? I'm curious how they approached that problem.

You press the "play area" button on the remote, which switches between dvd-video and dvd-audio and/or 5.1/stereo layers. That is how it's done on my DV-60, which is just the SA-60 with video.

[HiWire]

The horrible environment of the PC is still to be dealt with but an external PSU for the PCI card could be an option...

And that's why I don't mix computers and dedicated listening. My computer is way too loud, in an acoustic way, anyway.

[spritzer]

And that's why I don't mix computers and dedicated listening. My computer is way too loud, in an acoustic way, anyway.

They are both loud acoustically and contaminate electricity in a very bad way. That has to change before they can start to gain some headway against the silver disk. It could be possible to use galvanic isolation and create a clean room inside the computer before the signal is lifted out and have the computer on a different PSU...

[Jon L]

That said, 86.4% of statistics are made up. And most external dacs are better than the dacs used in consumer gear, therefore, given the two issues here, I'd say you're flat out full of shit.

Now that you mention it, I'm 76.2% sure I need some Dulcolax STAT; otherwise, we're gonna have some brown-colored headband Senn HE60 at the FS section pretty soon...

Of course, I do hope you didn't put estranged words in my mouth since all I'm talking about is the exact same DAC section in a given CDP from its transport vs. its spdif input.

[Elephas]

Some of the reasons for the choice of Accuphase or Esoteric are shipping costs, import taxes, availability, repairs/warranty and pricing. Non-Japan gear such as Ayre is more difficult to find and usually priced much higher than US-market prices. Human nature being what it is, I'm more miffed by the price differential than the high price itself.

If I lived in California I would be a lot more interested in APL.

I'm looking for a transport+DAC combo because I want to replace the DP-500 and Chord DAC64 and will continue to use the PC-source. It is just too convenient. Accuphase CDPs have digital inputs, though not AES/EBU which is what I'm using with the Chord. Esoteric one box players do not. Besides the DP800/DC801, another Accuphase option is the DP-700 SACD one box player.

I think I have more than 5000 Red Book CDs, but most of them are stored in plastic boxes in a storage room. It's ironic that as the number of CDs increases, the more advantageous a PC-source becomes.

The RME sound card > Chord DAC64 has served me well for a long time. Maybe instead of being disappointed by CD on the DP-500, I should be happy the RME > Chord sounds so good.

I've heard the SA-60 at a local audio shop before and thought it sounded very good, maybe better than either the DP-500 or DAC64. This was using their demo speaker system.

I'm planning to bring the DP-500 into the shop next week to compare with their SA-60 and another Esoteric player, an X-03 I think. They said it might eventually be possible to demo the P-05/D-05. Unfortunately there's no way to demo the Accuphase DP800/DC801 short of flying to Japan.

[Jon L]

If I lived in California I would be a lot more interested in APL.

..Accuphase CDPs have digital inputs, though not AES/EBU which is what I'm using with the Chord. ..

I think I have more than 5000 Red Book CDs, but most of them are stored in plastic boxes in a storage room. It's ironic that as the number of CDs increases, the more advantageous a PC-source becomes.

..

I've heard the SA-60 at a local audio shop before and thought it sounded very good, maybe better than either the DP-500 or DAC64. This was using their demo speaker system.

Your situation is pretty much my situation, down to thousands of CD's stored away and copied onto my hard drive.

Alex at APL absolutely loves to trash USB audio, but when he finally comes out with his "proprietary connection" he's been talking about for a long time, it might be worth a shot, though at a $$$$ price.

I'm also one one of those poeple who like the stock DV/SA 60 sound. Yeah, they don't sound like tubed CDP's, but so what? I would pick one up in a second if ANY Esoteric CDP's had a decent digital input, but none does.

I guess I should be happy my PC/Lynx 2B digital out sounds as good as it does. I'd be curious how Lynx digital output compares to RME.

Whatever, I'm happy enough with the sound I have now, and that's all that counts.

[Dusty Chalk]

I'm looking for a transport+DAC combo because I want to replace the DP-500 and Chord DAC64 and will continue to use the PC-source. It is just too convenient.

Some of the single-box players have digital inputs. Besides the Audio Aero that EdipenisRex keeps hawking.

[n_maher]

Some of the single-box players have digital inputs. Besides the Audio Aero that EdipenisRex keeps hawking.

I think the higher up the ladder you climb the more likely that the CD player will have digital inputs. For whatever reason I've always been a sucker for the Wadia aesthetic and with that in mind I'd love to hear how much better this 860x sounds compared to my 830.

[philodox]

i'm not hawking it

Yes you are.

[tom_hankins]

i'm not hawking it, i just think he should try to give one a listen.

Go ahead and keep hawking. Sometimes the souls need help finding there way to Heaven.