$2,000 Arcam or $200 Oppo + NAD M5 impressions

[HiWire]

So they finally dropped the price on an Arcam FMJ CD36 in Canada.

But...

1) Will there be a replacement soon for the CD36?

2) I'm still waiting for reviews of the upcoming Oppo DV-983 - it's supposed to have the same audio output section as the DV-980H.

3) Can a TweakAudio modded Oppo beat an Arcam flagship CD player?

4) Does an Arcam transport beat an Oppo transport?

5) The Oppo can play HDCD and SACD discs - does Redbook quality trump Hirez playback?

6) Oppo has video output - is it worth sacrificing great DVD upsampling video for brilliant audio?

Also, I listened for about an hour this weekend to the $2,500 NAD M5 on a NAD M3 amp with (green) Audioquest interconnects on PSB Platinum towers. The NAD is smooth and mostly does everything right, but it was missing the magic that I heard previously on the Arcam CD192. It was a big step up from the NAD M55 universal player in terms of transparency, soundstage, and detail, but I felt like I had heard better playback elsewhere. The overall sound signature is neutral, but with sins of omission rather than commission. Unfortunately, I walked out of the shop pleased at the listening session and the player's sound, but not enough to upgrade even from my lowly Panasonic portable CD player. In my opinion, the NAD M5 sounded Very Good out of PSB's flagship speakers, but I was looking for Excellent or beyond.

I played tracks from the following discs:

1) Jane Monheit - The Very Best of Jane Monheit

Felt muffled in the treble range at first. I asked the salesman to remove the speaker grills and the sound opened up, improving steadily throughout the listening session as the equipment/listener warmed up. Excellent performance in the bass, but percussion was a bit too prominent. Soundstage is ok, but not holographic by any means.

2) Sophie Milman - Make Someone Happy

The salesman immediately commented on the poor recording of Milman's voice. The voice was very upfront and probably mixed too hot but overall the songs sounded good, especially the background standard jazz instruments. Rhythm was decent, but not compelling.

3) Glenn Gould - Bach: The Goldberg Variations, 1955 Performance (Zenph Re-Performance) SACD

Hard to tell with this performance; I only listened to the first 4 variations. The volume was probably set a bit too low to hear all the detail from the piano.

4) The Platters - All-Time Greatest Hits

The stereo separation was exaggerated, as was normal at the time, on the later tracks. It was hard to tell how well the player was performing with the older mono recordings, even re-mastered. They have a tendency towards echoey and slightly blurry (mic placement?) sound, which may have been customary but it also made it hard to listen to details other than Tony Williams' astounding voice. If you wanted to do something absurd like that.

5) Heifetz/Chicago Symphony - Brahms/Tchaikovsky Violin Concertos (Living Stereo SACD)

Very musical and followed the details of Heifetz's violin playing well. The orchestra was also lively sounding and cohesive. Overall, a great performance.

6) George Michael - Patience

Precise and tight bass on dance tracks, but missing sparkle and urgency, and space. George Michael is reportedly a fussy studio recorder, but good players reveal the limits of synthetic pop like this fairly easily, no matter how well produced.

[tom_hankins]

I cant believe the M5 runs $2500.00? I got mine brand new for $1200.00. My overall impression is its warm, a little on the soft side, but pretty good for the price.(my price not yours) Very good midrange, very good bass, but I agree missing some sparkle. Almost on the level of the Mcintosh MCD201.

Better on both sacd and redbook than the Marantz SA11s1. I had these three here when I decided to go ahead and get the M5.

I think the redbook is easier on the ears than the SCD-1 I had before it but the SCD-1 was better with sacd.

[HiWire]

Thanks for your comments, Tom. Canadian prices often carry a premium over US prices, despite our currency's parity value. I was also quoted $2,700 for the Arcam FMJ CD36; purchasing players at these prices is a serious investment for me. I've listened to the Marantz Reference Series SA-15S1, but not the other players in the series. Both the Marantz and the NAD players are very capable, but left me with the impression that I'm looking for something better or different. Basically, I've been searching for near-flagship performance (dCS, Reimyo, EMM Labs, etc.) at mid-fi prices (e.g. $5,000 or less, but with impressive performance/value).

I'm looking at the following players (that I can remember offhand) with interest:

1) Marantz Reference Series SA-11S2 - pricey, but worth a listen; great build quality

2) Cambridge Audio Azur 840C - appears to have an unconventional DAC design

3) Rega Saturn - good reviews, right price range

4) Opera Audio Consonance CD-120 Linear - the sole non-oversampling design in this group, hi-fi+ award winner

5) Musical Fidelity X-RAY v8 - small and good?

6) Sony SCD-XA9000ES - the 900-lb gorilla; well-reviewed SACD, but ancient in this market

7) Linn Akurate - also pricey; possibly a unique sound signature

Naim CD5i - PRAT

The Oppo units caught my attention because of their extremely reasonable prices and widespread acceptance in the reviewing community. Since you have to buy them direct, it's almost impossible to audition one. If I bought one, I'd probably listen to it for at least a year or two before modding it.

[HiWire]

I can't remember what drew my attention to the Arcam player, but I think it was a positive blurb in a magazine, or possibly the Arcam/Rotel comparison thread at Head-Fi. In reviewing and auditioning the player, I am starting to think that it has exactly the sound and style that I'm looking for, but I won't know for sure until I hear more sources. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to hear many of the players that I've listed - a lot of the UK manufacturers only have limited distribution in Canada, the Sony is not carried in the Canadian product line, and Opera Audio doesn't have a Canadian distributor at all.

Buying an Oppo player would allow me to crawl away with my wallet intact, whereas these other players are at least several months worth of investment. However, the Arcam FMJ CD36 would always seem like the one that got away. The other thing that makes the decision difficult is SACD playback - it is something that I really want (I have about 20 Hybrid SACDs so far), but only if the performance truly exceeds Redbook by a noticeable margin. Reports on the differences between the 2 formats are conflicting, and my own listening has been inconclusive so far. Ditto with HDCD, if possible.

[Dusty Chalk]

Basically, I've been searching for near-flagship performance (dCS, Reimyo, EMM Labs, etc.) at mid-fi prices (e.g. $5,000 or less, but with impressive performance/value).

I'm looking at the following players (that I can remember offhand) with interest:

1) Marantz Reference Series SA-11S2 - pricey, but worth a listen; great build quality

2) Cambridge Audio Azur 840C - appears to have an unconventional DAC design

3) Rega Saturn - good reviews, right price range

4) Opera Audio Consonance CD-120 Linear - the sole non-oversampling design in this group, hi-fi+ award winner

5) Musical Fidelity X-RAY v8 - small and good?

6) Sony SCD-XA9000ES - the 900-lb gorilla; well-reviewed SACD, but ancient in this market

7) Linn Akurate - also pricey; possibly a unique sound signature

Naim CD5i - PRAT

I would rule out the Musical Fidelity -- it is good entry-level performance, but nowhere near flagship.

You should also consider SACDMods-modded Denon universal player such as the 3930 (?designation), or some other familiar modder -- ModWright, perhaps? I've also considered a RAM-(Reference Audio Mods-) modded Oppo, myself.

[boomana]

I've compared my Exemplar Denon 2900 against many of the big boys (not Reimyo or EMM Labs, which I have yet to hear...thinking Feb. John and Al ). For Redbook, it more than holds it's own against the Esoteric DV50 and SA10, Wadia 301, Great Northern modded Opus 21 modded, Ayre C-7xe, and I far prefer it to the Rega or Merdian sound. Others do better at SACD or DVD-A most notably the SA10, which was one with which I did a purposeful comparison. Purk just picked one up off audiogon for under $1200, which is an insanely good price. There's easily had for $1400-1600 depending on some upgrades.

[tom_hankins]

Have you considered the RAM modified OPPOs? I think they run around 800.00 and received good press. I have had two of the Modwright 999ES and one SCD-777ES(baby brother to SCD-1) which had mods by both Kern and Modwright. They are very good players but I think the Denons with the same mods are better. I have spent time with the Modwright Denon 3910 with the tubed power supply and it was very nice. Also check into a used APL 3910 or the Exemplar Denons. If you dont need sacd there are a ton of nice players on the used market. My all time favorite digital have been the Audio Aeros.

[John D.]

Buying an Oppo player would allow me to crawl away with my wallet intact, whereas these other players are at least several months worth of investment. However, the Arcam FMJ CD36 would always seem like the one that got away. The other thing that makes the decision difficult is SACD playback - it is something that I really want (I have about 20 Hybrid SACDs so far), but only if the performance truly exceeds Redbook by a noticeable margin. Reports on the differences between the 2 formats are conflicting, and my own listening has been inconclusive so far. Ditto with HDCD, if possible.

I bought an OPPO DV-970 just for audio playback. I talked to a rep at OPPO and this is the model they recommended at the time for my needs. I use it only for SACD, HDCD and DVD-A

I'm happy with it, had it for about a year now.

[hYdrociTy]

are you willing to buy used? if so, you can get some actual flagship players for $5000 or even well under.

Your player has awesome de-jittering though, which may be why even running your long ass (how long was it?) toslink has minimal effects on the sound. Not all units that take in toslink think much about jitter levels.

[hYdrociTy]

how the hell did that happen..

yea this belongs in the samuels vs levinson thread..

quoting this

what a load of bullshit. i have a pretty fucking good rig, and i use toslink 90% of the time. still sounds pretty fucking good. it's real handy, too.

[HiWire]

Yes, I've considered the RAM-modded Oppo players, Modwright, SACDMods, etc. as well. If I went that route, I'd probably build on a Sony ES SACD player, but I'll consider the Denons as well.

I'm really looking at the lower end of $1,000 - $5,000, so it's unlikely that I'll be buying a used flagship player unless I get lucky or something really special crosses my path. Also, I prefer a new player, if possible. I'll cross the MF player off my list - I just included it because of its size.

Thanks for all the responses (even the inadvertent ones), guys. I think that most manufacturers do concentrate their engineering efforts on the analog outputs, specifically, the single-ended ones. Recent threads at Head-Fi seem to indicate that balanced and other outputs are generally marketing-driven or an afterthought. Also, I recall that it's generally difficult to implement a low-jitter optical interface.

[purk]

You should check out a used Modwright Sony 999ES w/ Platinum mods or an Exemplar Denon 2900. These used units can be purchased for less than $1600 USD, which is an excellent bargain. I had the SACDmods Sony SCD-C555ES and I don't think it is as refined as the Exemplar or the Modwright Unit. The Zapfilter has a very powerful and upfront presentation, but not as refined or as liquid sounding as the Modwright and Exemplar units that I've tried.

[HiWire]

Thanks, I'll add Modwright players to the list. Unfortunately, it's impossible to audition these since they're not as popular in Canada. I've never had the chance to hear a Sony ES player at a meet so far, and definitely none of the big-name modders are in evidence here (SACDMods, Modwright, RAM).

[HiWire]

I think I've solved my format dilemma: I'll buy a really good Redbook player and an Oppo player. That way, I've got Redbook, HDCD, upsampling DVD video, DVD-A, and SACD covered. I can then mod the Oppo if I have the funds and the inclination. HDMI DSD output offers the possibility of an external decoder.

I think Redbook playback is reaching its limits with the current upsampling players - no amount of boutique parts or quantum math is going to get us any closer to the actual recording on the disc. It's possible to make it sound better (upsampling, filters, crazy parallel processing, etc.) than the source material, but I'm looking at the actual information on the disc. There is a finite limit with analog parts, and most well-engineered players seem to measure just fine on all the standard tests.

However, I think that DVD-A and SACD offer more possibilities for further sonic improvement. Redbook has been around quite a while, and the hi-res formats are still in their infancy. Implementations are likely to change, for example, the conversion of DSD to high-res PCM in the Audio Aero players.

[DigiPete]

The SACDmods Denon 3930Ci is really great sounding.

It beats the SACDmods Denon 3910 I used to have by a bit.

For about $2300 total investment, I don't think you can do much better except with

very very high end gear, and then only slightly. And the SACD DVDA playback is killer.

I heard it against the Reimyo and it held its own quite well in Redbook, with

an very small advantage to the Reimyo.

The OPPO will sound mediocre on hi-rez unless heavily modded(new output stage),

and will never reach what a high end or modded mid-fi player can do.

Just my 2 cents

[DigiPete]

PS I'm considering an Arcam 82T, or 73T, 93T or 192 for my cheap system in the Den.

Any thoughts on these players?

[n_maher]

PS I'm considering an Arcam 82T, or 73T, 93T or 192 for my cheap system in the Den.

Any thoughts on these players?

I like my Arcam CD73 quite a bit, it was my first forray into a "real" source and certainly didn't disappoint when compared to the likes of my Monica DAC and other mid-fi sources I compared it to. I haven't heard any of the other Arcam products you're considering so I have no idea how much better things can get. But in terms of bang for your buck the 73 seems pretty damn decent, especially since you can get a used one for 33% off the retail $700 without trying very hard. There's two on Head-Fi right now and a couple others on Audiogon.

[DigiPete]

Thanks Nate!

I figure it will be enough player for that system,

and a decent backup player if my main player goes down.

[n_maher]

Where are you located again? I could probably make the Arcam available if you're interested in trying it out.

[DigiPete]

North of LA.

I wonder what the difference is between the 73 and the 73T?

[n_maher]

The 73T isn't listed on Arcam's site and reviews of the player mention that model # going all the way back to 2004. I *think* that it may refer to the CD text information feature, but I'm not sure. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think there's much if any difference related to the 't' suffix.

[DigiPete]

yup, looks like the CD73 is a later model.

The 82 or 192 looking intriguing with the upgraded multi dac modules...

[DigiPete]

There is an Arcam 82T for sale on the Gon. I'll offer close to $500.

This one has dual dacs.

[Dusty Chalk]

The SACDmods Denon 3930Ci is really great sounding.

It beats the SACDmods Denon 3910 I used to have by a bit.

And that's saying a lot, because the 3910 already sounds really good.

[DigiPete]

And that's saying a lot, because the 3910 already sounds really good.

True...