Samuels vs Levinson

[comfortably_numb]

I'm not saying anyones rig is bad, but I've always found coax digital connections to be superior to optical digital connections when you use a good coax cable. In a computer as source setup optical is preferable though since it doesn't pick up as much noise from the computer.

Yea thats what I run Toslink, using my computer as source (now that I got it running quietly)

i've had good experiences with Chord Company, both toslink and coax. Tara labs are also memorable

Thanks for the information

[deepak]

If you want to melt, go tubes...headphones are qite good in that tubes can usually drive them without a problem...unlike tubes with speakers (IMO only monster Audio Research or CAT superamps driver /real/ speakers properly).

Enough rambling...

Real speakers have to be low sensitive huh?

[deepak]

yes, deepak, obviously, or i wouldn't have chosen mine

[philodox]

just need the right jitter rejection

Bah, jitter reduction shmitter reduction.

[Knuckledragger]

just need the right jitter rejection

This problem was solved in the world of pro audio more than 20 years ago. It's called "word clock." Why consumer gear lacks it, I'll never know. Probably so high end audio shops can sell $3000 digital interconnects. 0_o

[hYdrociTy]

This problem was solved in the world of pro audio more than 20 years ago. It's called "word clock." Why consumer gear lacks it, I'll never know. Probably so high end audio shops can sell $3000 digital interconnects. 0_o

is a bit excessive since the spdif already works reasonably well...

Short lengths between a few simple components usually jitter less than a studio with countless chains of digital to digital processors and stuff, so no one really felt the need. Jitter is a real concern though even at home with just one transport and dac, especially if you run many meters of cabling and stuff.

A word clock whether built in or as a unit probably didn't catch on because by the time they figured jitter could be degrading home audio, jitter reduction devices made by audiophiles companies already popped up which require no extra work by the transport or dac companies or whatever. They let the user decide if they need/want a jitter box. Having wordclock standard in dvd players and cd players etc

[philodox]

This problem was solved in the world of pro audio more than 20 years ago. It's called "word clock." Why consumer gear lacks it, I'll never know. Probably so high end audio shops can sell $3000 digital interconnects.

Lots of high end sources have word clock input. You know that pro audio gear can get pretty pricey too right?

[Knuckledragger]

A word clock whether built in or as a unit probably didn't catch on because by the time they figured jitter could be degrading home audio, jitter reduction devices made by audiophiles companies already popped up which require no extra work by the transport or dac companies or whatever. They let the user decide if they need/want a jitter box. Having wordclock standard in dvd players and cd players etc

This sounds like it was written by Sony's marketing department. It didn't "catch on" because it was an easy expense to cut. It's pretty clear that major electronics manufacturers, operating under pressure from the MAFIAA, view consumers with condescension and scorn. This is why players can't ouput DVD-A and SACD content digitally, and why the HDMI spec is such a complete abortion. Speaking of, how hard would it have been to add word clock to HDMI?

Lots of high end sources have word clock input. You know that pro audio gear can get pretty pricey too right?

Yes. Very. The upper end of professional audio recording (Neve, etc) makes home audio look like a relative bargain. I have occasionally encountered high end home audio equipment with word clock (the first I ever saw was that flagship transport/DAC Sony made in '91 or so) but it is very much the exception and not the rule.

[hYdrociTy]

This sounds like it was written by Sony's marketing department. It didn't "catch on" because it was an easy expense to cut.

Profit is the name of the game.

It's pretty clear that major electronics manufacturers, operating under pressure from the MAFIAA, view consumers with condescension and scorn. This is why players can't ouput DVD-A and SACD content digitally, and why the HDMI spec is such a complete abortion. Speaking of, how hard would it have been to add word clock to HDMI?

Keepin' the masses down 's the plan of the man

[dste6]

Real speakers have to be low sensitive huh?

Damn right they do, and ideally should weigh more than one's self . Sensitivity is hard to come by if you run say 4+ way dappolito config, you try run one of those with a 20watt SET...

[deepak]

Damn right they do, and ideally should weigh more than one's self . Sensitivity is hard to come by if you run say 4+ way dappolito config, you try run one of those with a 20watt SET...

I haven't heard them, but my babies will be 105 db/w/m powered by sweet 300B set yummyness

And I have to lose a decent amount of weight before each speaker weighs more than me

edit: hot damn didn't know they weighed 155 lbs each, I'm not too far off

[dste6]

each to their own, i spose deepak.

[aerius]

Sensitivity is hard to come by if you run say 4+ way dappolito config, you try run one of those with a 20watt SET...

Because manufacturers like using "audiophile approved" drivers with crap-ass efficiency and low power handling along with overly complicated crossovers, but OMG they're made of carbon fiber kevlar magnesium titanium beryllium alloys and shit!

Or you could get some pro-audio drivers from Beyma or 18sound with efficiencies of around 97-100dB/w/m which can also handle several hundred watts without frying.

[mjb]

any digital connection is only as good as the transport's transmitting quality and the DAC's receiving quality...not just the cable.

mjb

[dste6]

Because manufacturers like using "audiophile approved" drivers with crap-ass efficiency and low power handling along with overly complicated crossovers, but OMG they're made of carbon fiber kevlar magnesium titanium beryllium alloys and shit!

Or you could get some pro-audio drivers from Beyma or 18sound with efficiencies of around 97-100dB/w/m which can also handle several hundred watts without frying.

Fairly inaccurate generalisation aerius. I've learnt to stay away from drivers made of fancy material. More accurately you may find that the worse the speaker, the fancier the companies advertises its materials. I've found that good old paper pulp + carbon fiber gives the nicest sound. There are always exceptions of cause, i have heard some Kharma speakers with ceramic drivers that were astonishing. And also have encountered Beyma units, both 90db and 98db with hideous response curves, that i couldnt use, i dont care how much power they could take.

You are correct about crossovers, they can get a bit out of hand. However, what can ya do, i have so far not encountered any better way to get impressive bass extension and response, without 2 or 3 woofers in dappilito. When it comes down to it, you need alot of power to push alot of air.

High sensitivity full ranges like Lowthers are interesting but just cant push bass without a horn config, the result i find unsatisfactory. Electrostats i have had no experience with. I dont even want to talk about large sub(flab)woofers.

Im not saying good sound cant be achieved by SET's and high sensitivity 2 or even 3 way speakers. I am saying that SET are some what of a niche for a reason, theyre not the best at dynamics (ok not the be all and end all, i enjoy the tonal as much as the next guy).

And that if you invest in a SET (within reason) you will usually have to chose a speaker that will suit your amp...not the other way around, and i dont like that.

[Jon L]

I think it's funny that people think copper is a more reliable transmission medium than fiber.

Hehe, the major problem with toslink is not the "fiber" per se, but the nasty cheap-arse toslink transceiver and receiver modules most companies use, not to mention the ridiculously under-engineered toslink connectors. The fact Toslink actually sounds as decent as it does despite it all is quite astounding to me personally

[deepak]

Fairly inaccurate generalisation aerius. I've learnt to stay away from drivers made of fancy material. More accurately you may find that the worse the speaker, the fancier the companies advertises its materials. I've found that good old paper pulp + carbon fiber gives the nicest sound. There are always exceptions of cause, i have heard some Kharma speakers with ceramic drivers that were astonishing. And also have encountered Beyma units, both 90db and 98db with hideous response curves, that i couldnt use, i dont care how much power they could take.

You are correct about crossovers, they can get a bit out of hand. However, what can ya do, i have so far not encountered any better way to get impressive bass extension and response, without 2 or 3 woofers in dappilito. When it comes down to it, you need alot of power to push alot of air.

High sensitivity full ranges like Lowthers are interesting but just cant push bass without a horn config, the result i find unsatisfactory. Electrostats i have had no experience with. I dont even want to talk about large sub(flab)woofers.

Im not saying good sound cant be achieved by SET's and high sensitivity 2 or even 3 way speakers. I am saying that SET are some what of a niche for a reason, theyre not the best at dynamics (ok not the be all and end all, i enjoy the tonal as much as the next guy).

And that if you invest in a SET (within reason) you will usually have to chose a speaker that will suit your amp...not the other way around, and i dont like that.

Poor generalization about SETs, I can guarantee you well designed SET amps (unfortunately there are all too many shitty ones) + good horn setup will give you some really big dynamics. In fact the best I've heard. Great tone, dynamics, as close to neutral (that I can hear) is the reason I'm going with such a setup.

[tom_hankins]

Because manufacturers like using "audiophile approved" drivers with crap-ass efficiency and low power handling along with overly complicated crossovers, but OMG they're made of carbon fiber kevlar magnesium titanium beryllium alloys and shit!

Or you could get some pro-audio drivers from Beyma or 18sound with efficiencies of around 97-100dB/w/m which can also handle several hundred watts without frying.

Hard to believe you find the tweeters made of Beryllium to be shit. The two speakers I have heard with them have had the nicest treble I've heard.

[dste6]

Poor generalization about SETs, I can guarantee you well designed SET amps (unfortunately there are all too many shitty ones) + good horn setup will give you some really big dynamics. In fact the best I've heard. Great tone, dynamics, as close to neutral (that I can hear) is the reason I'm going with such a setup.

I believe your running the avantgarde duo setup yeh deepak? Gotta agree with you there, i have an acquaintance that owns either duo or trio (im not firmiliar with the line up) with AR amp pair and some arcam receiver...truely one of the best speakers ive ever heard, unfortunately one of the most expensive as well (i believe he bought it new as well :'( )

I distinctly remember hearing the Kind of Blue remaster on them, with a lifesize trumpet levitating in the air pointing down at me, was so real it was spooky.

...i swear i wasnt high

[dste6]

Real speakers have to be low sensitive huh?

if i had known you were talking about horn drivers, we wouldve been on the same page sooner ...i tend not to think of horns when someone says speakers, its a different universe to me haha!

i especially want to hear a bass horn

[deepak]

I believe your running the avantgarde duo setup yeh deepak? Gotta agree with you there, i have an acquaintance that owns either duo or trio (im not firmiliar with the line up) with AR amp pair and some arcam receiver...truely one of the best speakers ive ever heard, unfortunately one of the most expensive as well (i believe he bought it new as well :'( )

I distinctly remember hearing the Kind of Blue remaster on them, with a lifesize trumpet levitating in the air pointing down at me, was so real it was spooky.

...i swear i wasnt high

Yeah I'm referring to the Duos. I have not heard the Edgarhorns (my friend who has the Duos, says they're good) but all other horns I have listened to have distinct colorations in the midrange. Though the owner of Guerrilla Audio has a complete DIY horn setup that says they compete with a quarter million dollar Trio setup.

But the importance of good SET amps is critical and I get why you say they can lack dynamics. I've heard a Duo setup using Art Audio 300B amps that was completely underwhelming for how much it cost.

[aerius]

Fairly inaccurate generalisation aerius. I've learnt to stay away from drivers made of fancy material. More accurately you may find that the worse the speaker, the fancier the companies advertises its materials. I've found that good old paper pulp + carbon fiber gives the nicest sound. There are always exceptions of cause, i have heard some Kharma speakers with ceramic drivers that were astonishing.

You've figured it out, most manufacturers haven't. The fancy material drivers have all sorts of ugly breakup modes among other things which craps up the sound and requires overly complicated crossovers to tame.

And also have encountered Beyma units, both 90db and 98db with hideous response curves, that i couldnt use, i dont care how much power they could take.

You probably ran into their crap ones. The 12G40 or 12MW/Nd for instance are pretty much flat from 200-2000Hz with much lower distortion than you'll find in most other drivers.

You are correct about crossovers, they can get a bit out of hand. However, what can ya do, i have so far not encountered any better way to get impressive bass extension and response, without 2 or 3 woofers in dappilito. When it comes down to it, you need alot of power to push alot of air.

Choose nice linear drivers so you don't have to put compensation elements all over the place. Stick the bass driver as close to the floor as possible so the floor mirror-images the driver and gives you extra gain down low. Put a pair of efficient 12" or 15" drivers close to the floor and it'll give you a ton of clean bass with fairly little power.

Im not saying good sound cant be achieved by SET's and high sensitivity 2 or even 3 way speakers. I am saying that SET are some what of a niche for a reason, theyre not the best at dynamics (ok not the be all and end all, i enjoy the tonal as much as the next guy).

If someone decided to build an SET with kW range transmitter tubes, it would have killer dynamics.