Samuels vs Levinson

[Knuckledragger]

Somebody save this guy. Anyone who flies an airplane should be concerned about fires.

[dste6]

odd that someone who is partial to Nautilus' level gear has such a requirement for toslink or worse usb over a good coax connection \...perhaps a raptor would suit him

[Knuckledragger]

odd that someone who is partial to Nautilus' level gear has such a requirement for toslink or worse usb over a good coax connection \...perhaps a raptor would suit him

Toslink is indeed rubbish, but digital audio over USB is often superior to coaxial. USB and FireWire eliminate most of the jitter issues that Toslink, SP/DIF, and AES/EBU have (without a additional wordclock connection, that is.)

[dste6]

ohhhh how 'bout that! Yes i just had a read and you do have a point...i've just had a few bad experiences with usb passing noise to the dac...it was qite funny actally, u could actually /hear/ cursor and window movements, though admitedly it was an a horrible dac, and im pretty that computer had bus noise issues...oh well, they've been at the tip for a while now

[lross78550]

ok i took knuckledraggers advice and moved over to this site for more information.

Yea im the guy who flys

Ok let me try to clear a few things up. 1st avaition fuel is $4.95 a gallon and a small single engine airplane burns 14 gallons an hour So i dont own the levinsons or the nautilus 802's anymore

I dont really expect 3 grand worth of headphones, amps, and dacs to compete with 7 grand of monoblocks (used) and 6 grand worth of speakers (used). So i figured if its not going to sound "melt in your chair great" i might as well have the convience of toslink (my desktop computer has a toslink out) and usb (my laptop has usb). As i said i have Lexicon MC-12B Balance home theater preamp / processor and i can always feed the amp that if im trying to squeeze out the last bit of sweetness from my headphones and amp. So considering that im not trying to recreate my old levinson/nautilus system in a headphone rig, im just trying to match the sonic qualities that i loved soo much about levinson amps, astounding decay,slighty layed back highs, awesome sound stage and control and clairity of every insturment each individually positioned in its own space ... ahh i just drool thinking about it. The meridian amps actually allowed you to hear parts of recordings that the levinsons rolled off or simply ignored. the meridians left you thinking wow thats awesome reproduction of the recording. the levinsons left you thinking wow thats music. Im sorry im not smart enough and dont have the writing skills to explain it any better than that. I take it from reading some post on this site that rsa is the bose of headphone amps. while im sure that statement is a little harsh, theres no way they could be as bad as bose. Im now left with the same original question who makes a nice smooth headphone amp with control and power to spare. As for my headphones i currently own a really nice pair of telex status d50's just kidding thats my avaition headset. no right now i only own a iem shure se530's but i plan on buying a couple pair of nice headphones once i have something to feed them. I sure hope you guys can help me as im more confused now than ever. With home audio it was easy there where 10 major brands of amps, 10 of speakers, etc. none of them where junk and you just swapped and traded until you found your idea of perfection. Im starting to feel headphone equipment is more like snake oil. I will say that one company at least has what appears to be good customer service i emailed headroom asking about the purchase and exchange posibility of their desktop amps and they replied and said that i could order what ever i wanted and return it for a full refund! no questions ask for 30 days. Thats something that meridian classe or levinson would laugh you off the phone if you ask them for a 30 day free trial

what do you guys think about this it has a headphone jack ??

http://www.vtl.com/pages/integrated.html

Seriously please give me any advice you can and i really apprieciate you taking the time to read

this long post

Thanks

Lee Ross

Harlingen, Tx

[Dusty Chalk]

Welcome to head-case, sorry about your thin skin.

Ok let me try to clear a few things up. 1st avaition fuel is $4.95 a gallon and a small single engine airplane burns 14 gallons an hour So i dont own the levinsons or the nautilus 802's anymore

We don't ask people to post their excuses for selling shit, but yours is certainly one of the more interesting ones -- my sister is a pilot (although she hasn't flown in ages), so I can sympathize -- it's an addiction, just like anything else. Albeit, not one with any damaging side-effects other than to your wallet.

So i figured if its not going to sound "melt in your chair great" i might as well have the convience of toslink (my desktop computer has a toslink out) and usb (my laptop has usb).

Actually, many of us here have a computer-based source, there's nothing wrong with that.

Im starting to feel headphone equipment is more like snake oil.

No, it really isn't. Think "integrated amp driving single, full-range drivers", just on a much smaller scale. There is definitely good equipment out there, just as there is with speakers, and there is bad. It's not a matter of a headphone listening experience being better or worse than a speaker listening experience, it's just different -- you're always in the sweet spot, but you have to wear this thing on your head. (That's pretty much an overly-simplified synopsis of the fundamental listening differences, from a functionality perspective; there's also the psychology of listening privately, the fact that most audiophile recordings aren't designed for headphone listening with regard to soundstage and whatnot, the "visceral bass" debate [listening with just your ears vs. with your entire body], the effect of room treatments and interaction with the environment and a whole mess of other issues.)

what do you guys think about this it has a headphone jack ??

http://www.vtl.com/pages/integrated.html

Mmm...VTL...I've heard that they have some minor QC issues, but if you can get past that, their equipment can sound really good, but I have no personal experience -- just the occasional review in a trade mag.

Some recommendations: Apogee, HeadRoom. I'd go with HeadRoom, since you had such a good first impression with them (and by the way, that's not just talk -- they walk the walk as well). Those diamond buffers sound great.

[granodemostasa]

now that is an interesting amplifier that you are considering there. However I don't know of anyone who has it.

Headroom does have the best customer service in the industry. seriously, there's nothing like them and I very much respect their business practices and openness about what they are doing.

in any case, at the end of the day I don't know what headphones you perfer. for that much doe: DA100, SP Extreme, RS-1 seems about right to me.

[Dusty Chalk]

Small signal frequency response (< 0.2% THD @ 1W)

1 - 75 kHz -3dB

Really?!?!?

I have no idea what this means, when contrasted with the power specifications.

[lross78550]

i hope you didn't get the wrong impression, after reading my post "1st let me clear a few things up" i can see where you might get the impression i have thin skin. I'm sorry if i gave that impression.

that's why i put the :) at the start of the post. It was a failed attempt to show humor and self deprecation.

again sorry if it gives the wrong impression.

Lee

[MaloS]

Really?!?!?

I have no idea what this means, when contrasted with the power specifications.

You can think of it comfortably as they took some optimal impedance, feed 1 watt into it, measured the frequency response...

Majority of the headphone amplifiers have the voltage swing similar to that of a SET speaker amp. The main concern is that they are not ready for the current draw needed by speakers, and the main distortion issues occur when using larger and larger amounts of power (which are still small with headphones). Hence, 1W is a reasonable max (you would fry you ears driving 1 watt into HD600 for example, and the ATH-W5000 has 2W power rating, sufficient to make them louder than laptop speakers) to show THD and frequency response.

[dste6]

what a load of bullshit. i have a pretty fucking good rig, and i use toslink 90% of the time. still sounds pretty fucking good. it's real handy, too.

reks your not wrong, toslink is fine...provided that a very good cable is used. Im my experience, money for money it is much easier (cheaper) to find a good coax compared to toslink, i know, i've done comparisons. In my experience $ for $ toslink is more lossy, i believe this is due to refractive errors inherent in the optic transmission...so u need a damn good cable (which u perhaps have), which many ppl tend to forget, and think the average hometheater a/v ones will do.

I just dont see a point, if one is running spdif off their computer, to use toslink over coax.

[dste6]

whao, 25 foot? Yes perhaps we are talking of different applications

[grawk]

I think it's funny that people think copper is a more reliable transmission medium than fiber.

[Nanoha]

i hope you didn't get the wrong impression, after reading my post "1st let me clear a few things up" i can see where you might get the impression i have thin skin. I'm sorry if i gave that impression.

"Sorry about your thin skin" is the welcome motto here. Don't take it to heart. Welcome to Head-Case.

[Filburt]

The major problem with toslink is rise time. I've found it mostly works fine for my applications, but when I did quantative evaluation of each, coax did fare a bit better overall. The distortion spectrum was a bit less complex and a bit lower out of the dac I was using, although I'm not sure it was particularly audible. In more demanding applications, though, toslink appears to be disfavored.

[dste6]

I think it's funny that people think copper is a more reliable transmission medium than fiber.

Yes, it certainly can be. i've found people tend to think the opposite, that anything with 'optical' in its name is a perfect transmission medium. True it is the best for long distances, my father is in telecommunications he wouldnt let me lie. It is just not true for audio interfaces, its a different stream. Yes, reks' application is justified, but i laugh when people buy 2 foot toslinks for their rack, i laugh harder when its a $20 a/v type from the local shack (which it usually is) and think there wont be dramatic loss.

[Knuckledragger]

i hope you didn't get the wrong impression, after reading my post "1st let me clear a few things up" i can see where you might get the impression i have thin skin. I'm sorry if i gave that impression.

that's why i put the :) at the start of the post. It was a failed attempt to show humor and self deprecation.

again sorry if it gives the wrong impression.

Lee

Others may have already explained this, but "Sorry about your thin skin" is the head-case version head-fi's "Sorry about your walllet" greeting. In short, head-fi.org is a cult of people who encourage each other to spend ludicrous sums of money on headphone gear. Head-case.org is a cult of people who sometimes engage in merciless flaming and encouraging you to spend your money wisely. In spite of the occasional outbreak of cretinous behavior, the lack of censorship around here leads to a more free flow of ideas and much less bullshit. In my relatively short time on head-case, I have observed a lot of smart people with wealth of experience on which to draw. There are a few idiots and asshats, but they make themselves known pretty quickly.

Based on what you said in your first post, it sounds like euphonics are very important to you, especially vs. detail. This is a recipe for tubes if I ever heard it. First suggestion: the Headroom Millett Hybrid. It has the advantage of being a HeadRoom product (meaning it is well designed, constructed, and supported) and a pleasingly warm sound. While you're contacting HeadRoom, ask them about a pair of Sennheiser HD-650s. You won't be sorry you did.

[comfortably_numb]

Yes, it certainly can be. i've found people tend to think the opposite, that anything with 'optical' in its name is a perfect transmission medium. True it is the best for long distances, my father is in telecommunications he wouldnt let me lie. It is just not true for audio interfaces, its a different stream. Yes, reks' application is justified, but i laugh when people buy 2 foot toslinks for their rack, i laugh harder when its a $20 a/v type from the local shack (which it usually is) and think there wont be dramatic loss.

What do you consider a good Toslink, I'm just running a monoprice 8mm cable and it sounds pretty dam good in my system. I had a piece of junk Toslink from eBay before that and it did sound pretty bad with that cable.

[dste6]

i've had good experiences with Chord Company, both toslink and coax. Tara labs are also memorable

[dste6]

oh and stay away from anything like audioquest, over priced shit in my opinion...how can any company in good conscience offer up six different toslink cables

[Mastergill]

...With home audio it was easy there where 10 major brands of amps, 10 of speakers, etc. none of them where junk and you just swapped and traded until you found your idea of perfection. Im starting to feel headphone equipment is more like snake oil...

what do you guys think about this it has a headphone jack ??

http://www.vtl.com/pages/integrated.html

It's not really snake oil, but lot of amateurism, gears that are in constant evolution, etc...

I would take the VTL stuff over the SP or RSA shit any day.

[dste6]

I dont really expect 3 grand worth of headphones, amps, and dacs to compete with 7 grand of monoblocks (used) and 6 grand worth of speakers (used). So i figured if its not going to sound "melt

Lee, you might be surprised.

I've always prefered speakers to heaphones, and i still believe that you cant achieve the same dynamics/soundstage with phone that you can with speakers. The key with headphone rigs is that they offer a level of detail, depth, tonal accuracy that is on par with very impressive speaker systems, at a fraction of $.

For example, a friend of mine has a similar phone/amp rig to mine (rather modest, as standards go)...he also owns a pair of Energy Veritas v2.8 speakers, a Musical Fidelity kW500 amp, and MF Vista sacd player...every component in this rig is a monster IMO....still, he finds aspects the headphone rig that he likes better than the speaker rig.

Point is, if someone can can find a modest $1000~ headphone rig as enjoyable as at $30-45k (new) speaker rig [15K~ used; i dont believe used-price is a good way measuring level]

...i would not be worried about your ability to enjoy at 3k head rig

If you want to melt, go tubes...headphones are qite good in that tubes can usually drive them without a problem...unlike tubes with speakers (IMO only monster Audio Research or CAT superamps driver /real/ speakers properly).

A great comparison is Diana Krall Live in Paris "Case of You" (track 11 i believe)...there is ambiance, emotion and naunce (voice inflection, hall size, piano pedal texture) that gets lost on my modest densen/proac rig, and even my friend's energy/MF...but is somehow more easily appreciated on a simple 701/LD MIV.

Headphones are NOT snake oil...they are just different.

I've heard excellent things about Singlepower PPX3 (havent heard it), and in my opinion AKG K701 is the best phone a beginner can get (i was not impressed by RS-1, and from the sound of your preferences i dont think it would be for you).

you did not mention source, but it is important, as you may know

Enough rambling...

[tom_hankins]

I have had the chance to listen to the headphone jack on the VTL IT-85. All the shop carries for phones are Grados. I listened to the 325i with the VTL. I thought it had trouble with the Grados. if your going with low imp. phones I would look elsewhere. I might take the HD650s with me and head over there today.

I have been looking for a reason to get my wife in there to check out the Dynavector arm I want for my table anyway.

Oh, dste6, thanks for "Live in Paris" mention. Think I will head to the basement and listen to that before I do anything.

[lross78550]

heres an old one on audiogon. I dont know this guy so buyer beware!

BTW Thanks so much for everyones help, i really apprieciate it.

Lee

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1201218270

[philodox]

I'm not saying anyones rig is bad, but I've always found coax digital connections to be superior to optical digital connections when you use a good coax cable. In a computer as source setup optical is preferable though since it doesn't pick up as much noise from the computer.