November 17, 2007 East Bay SOTA Meet Impressions

[Zorro]

I doubt they could relocate the tubes as there wouldn't be any way to open up the player with the tubes on top. Some internal structure could be made but I just don't get the point. The 6H30 is good but the ECC99 is a better tube in many regards.

What other tubes could you recommend? Some others that maybe better in general? The ECC99 is not the best either.

[philodox]

I doubt they could relocate the tubes as there wouldn't be any way to open up the player with the tubes on top. Some internal structure could be made but I just don't get the point.

The point is that I think it is retarded to have tubes sticking out the back of your CD player. I can't be the only one.

The 6H30 is good but the ECC99 is a better tube in many regards.

How's that?

[spritzer]

What other tubes could you recommend? Some others that maybe better in general? The ECC99 is not the best either.

There is no best while some tubes are better then others it mostly depends on the implementation. The ECC99 is a very linear tube with a lot of power as it was designed for 300b driver duty. I would gladly use either a ECC99 or a 6H30 instead of the normal text book stuff most companies use.

The point is that I think it is retarded to have tubes sticking out the back of your CD player. I can't be the only one.

You are the only one... The only reason most modders mount the tubes through the top plate is because they are using PCB's and want to minimize the p-p wiring as it is more expensive.

[philodox]

You are the only one...

I doubt that.

Anyone else notice that you need to reach over the tubes to access the XLR jacks? Also, not to be picky, but is it asking too much to not have unfilled holes on the back of your $30,000 modded CD player?

[spritzer]

I doubt that.

Anyone else notice that you need to reach over the tubes to access the XLR jacks? Also, not to be picky, but is it asking too much to not have unfilled holes on the back of your $30,000 modded CD player?

You need to access the player from each side and some plugs would be nice for the holes. Even a simple metal plate with the tubes and inputs engraved into it.

[philodox]

Even a simple metal plate with the tubes and inputs engraved into it.

Yeah, that would be the way to do it, I think.

[Dusty Chalk]

The point is that I think it is retarded to have tubes sticking out the back of your CD player. I can't be the only one.

You're not -- that's the first thing I noticed...at first I was like, "well, that's an unorthodox tube placement...cool", but then I was like, "...but not very utilitarian". Oh, well, if it sounds as good as people say it do, it wouldn't be a show-stopper for me. Just a niggle.

[grawk]

You're not -- that's the first thing I noticed...at first I was like, "well, that's an unorthodox tube placement...cool", but then I was like, "...but not very utilitarian". Oh, well, if it sounds as good as people say it do, it wouldn't be a show-stopper for me. Just a niggle.

Means it won't get crushed if you set stuff on top of it

[Dusty Chalk]

Yeah, there's that, too -- and it's still positioned in a way that allows for breathing room, so there are plenty of pros about the positioning as well.

[neilvg]

The kinds of people who have this unit have a special place for it and either don't move it much, or allow for a good amount for room to access it. You don't spend $30k on a player and stack a bunch of stuff behind and on top of it. Most people keep this player free of obstructions on all sides. The tubes are a little sensitive in that you have to make sure that you don't hit them when plugging stuff in, but that is all par for the course. And luckily, these tubes are quite cheap (<$40 bux for the two). But clearly we don't want to damage the plates sockets.

The player sounds fan-fucking-tastic. I can't believe how loudly I can play and absolutely no grain, hash, fatigue or anything. Read my write-up on the APL forums, as it describes what I currently feel in comparison to the EMM. Once I get some more experience I can write more.

It is surprisingly easy (minus the weight) to move this player between my speakers and headphones. The hardest part is putting that damn VD cable in. I tired ORI-X2 on the ES2. No good. Couldn't listen at all. VD went in and 'ahhh'. Exact opposite experience at first on my speaker rig. But it turned out that was due to the premier power plant and isolation stands. Once I took those off and the premier went out and I went straight to the wall, I put another VD back in (a more flexible one) and it was all good.

Neil

[philodox]

I'm glad it sounds good, and I agree that with this type of unit you want it to be on its own and not in a stack. I still think that the tubes could be placed better, but it is a minor 'niggle' as Dusty pointed out.

I'm not sure I completely follow your last paragraph. Seemed to go a little Patrick82 from this side of the screen.

[spritzer]

I'm not sure I completely follow your last paragraph. Seemed to go a little Patrick82 from this side of the screen.

Neil is just going through the motions of using a CDP with a linear PSU instead of a switcher. Removing all power filters is a necessity.

[philodox]

Neil is just going through the motions of using a CDP with a linear PSU instead of a switcher. Removing all power filters is a necessity.

Removing power filters is necessity with a linear PSU? I noticed huge differences using my UPC-200 with my Lavry DAC... which has a switcher. I think the Eastsound has a linear power supply. Maybe I should try without? Hmmm...

[neilvg]

I'm glad it sounds good, and I agree that with this type of unit you want it to be on its own and not in a stack. I still think that the tubes could be placed better, but it is a minor 'niggle' as Dusty pointed out

Hahahaha.. I can see how you'd say that from that last paragraph. Even re-reading it myself, I see how, say , a previous version of myself from about 3 years ago would look at that last statement, and worry about my future (current) mental health. But really, with the EMM Labs, plugging it into a rengerator like the Power Plant Premier really brings this player up. While, just the opposite, with the NWO, it kind of deadens the sound. The NWO is so lively and tonally rich that once you have heard it setup properly, you know right away when something is off. I had the good fortune of hearing this 'magic' so to speak at both Alex's and my place, and also the day of the meet. So once that tone and transparency and effortlessness was diminished, I noticed it right away. You would too (I think).

The same goes for the cables, you really do hear a difference. And like I have iterated in the past, you may say a cable change is really only 1 or 2% or whatever. But honestly, the way perception goes, it has to do with what you notice and what you pay attention to. If you do not notice what aspect the cable is having over the reproduction, you will not notice or miss/enjoy it. But once you clearly can hear a cable, and also hear what another cable does/does not do, this apparent subtely is no longer subtle since the magnifying lens of attention will now bring these aspects to the forfront. I can honestly tell you VD cabling with my HE90/ES2 sounds amazing and does this combo major good. Putting X-2 on this combo thins out the sound, changes the tonality, and makes the bass less impactful. But don't believe me. Come over and listen for yourself one day.

Neil

[Icarium]

Just wait until Alex hooks you up with his power cable.

[Icarium]

From Alex Peychev's boards:

Icarium wrote:

As for whether or not the 3.0 GO can drive K1000s directly... I would have to say probably not. K1000s are significantly harder to drive than the HD650s. They are possibly the most difficult dynamic headphone to drive and need something like 6-8 watts per channel to really sound their best.

There is no problem installing a totally transparent Class "A" MOSFET buffer in the NWO so it achieves 10W for the headphones. I did not know what I am going to face when I came down San Leandro for the Head-Fi meeting, otherwise, I'd show prepared. Smile

After hearing Neil's electrostatic headphones, I am now even thinking about offering an external unit for electrostats. This is given I have more free time for R&D.

Please look out for headphones like Neil's and let me know if one becomes available. I've always wanted to have good sounding headset but have never liked anything, until last Saturday when I heard the Sennh's. WOW!

Regards,

I wonder what K1ks sound like coming from the NWO directly....

[spritzer]

Removing power filters is necessity with a linear PSU? I noticed huge differences using my UPC-200 with my Lavry DAC... which has a switcher. I think the Eastsound has a linear power supply. Maybe I should try without? Hmmm...

You should always start at the wall with a good PC and then try some of these filters. I've tried a bit of them (PS Audio, Shunyata, Chang, BPT) and none were as good as a direct connection to the wall or connected though my silver wired extension box. While they are there they do more harm then good but can have benefits when there is a lot of pollution on the mains.

Hahahaha.. I can see how you'd say that from that last paragraph. Even re-reading it myself, I see how, say , a previous version of myself from about 3 years ago would look at that last statement, and worry about my future (current) mental health. But really, with the EMM Labs, plugging it into a rengerator like the Power Plant Premier really brings this player up. While, just the opposite, with the NWO, it kind of deadens the sound. The NWO is so lively and tonally rich that once you have heard it setup properly, you know right away when something is off. I had the good fortune of hearing this 'magic' so to speak at both Alex's and my place, and also the day of the meet. So once that tone and transparency and effortlessness was diminished, I noticed it right away. You would too (I think).

The same goes for the cables, you really do hear a difference. And like I have iterated in the past, you may say a cable change is really only 1 or 2% or whatever. But honestly, the way perception goes, it has to do with what you notice and what you pay attention to. If you do not notice what aspect the cable is having over the reproduction, you will not notice or miss/enjoy it. But once you clearly can hear a cable, and also hear what another cable does/does not do, this apparent subtely is no longer subtle since the magnifying lens of attention will now bring these aspects to the forfront. I can honestly tell you VD cabling with my HE90/ES2 sounds amazing and does this combo major good. Putting X-2 on this combo thins out the sound, changes the tonality, and makes the bass less impactful. But don't believe me. Come over and listen for yourself one day.

Neil

The EMM gear all have a switching PSU so they will benefit from some power filtering/regeneration as it filters out some of the noise the player is pumping out. The HEV90 could also benefit from a filter as if memory serves me, there is a switcher in there.

Cables will make of break most systems but this becomes a big issue when it reaches a certain performance point. This is pretty far from being subtle and they only way to stay sane in the cable world is to stay away from the "major manufacturers" and either go with smaller companies or DIY.

[philodox]

Come over and listen for yourself one day.

I'd love to.

For what it's worth, I've definately heard the positive effects power conditioning can have... just have yet to hear the negatives I guess. Cables definately make a difference, no question there.

You should always start at the wall with a good PC and then try some of these filters. I've tried a bit of them (PS Audio, Shunyata, Chang, BPT) and none were as good as a direct connection to the wall or connected though my silver wired extension box. While they are there they do more harm then good but can have benefits when there is a lot of pollution on the mains.

Well, when I used my UPC-200 with my Lavry DAC, it turned it from a DAC1 [bleh] to a high end source. The positive difference was staggering. I've still yet to try taking it out of the loop with my current source, but I'll let you know once I do.

I have tried my amp straight into the wall and out of the UPC-200 and it sounds identical either way... so I just leave it hooked up to the UPC-200 for convenience. It has a dual zone mode where the source and amp are on separate circuits.

[neilvg]

Most everything I've tried generally benefits from filtering in my experience. The biggest thing is consistency. Those who live in big cities can suffer from different qualities of electricity at different times of the day. I first became interested in regeneration due to the startling difference in SQ during the evening versus afternoon hours of work days. However, it seems, and this is new to me as well, high quality linear power supply's already eliminate a bunch of this kind of noise, and any additional filtering begins to effect performance. I do not know if all linear PSU's are this way, but I believe at least some of them act this way. So, for the most part, I do not necessarily see getting completely rid of my filtering, but depending on what components I settle on. For my headphone rig, I was using it since I had the EMM Labs AND HEV90 originally. I don't think the ES2 necessarily benefits, and that hefty linear PSU probably (but I need to experiment more) sounds better straight out of the wall. The only other component I'm currently using in there is the NWO. A much stripped down system from the premier-cdsd-dcc2-es2 system from before.

If what Alex says is/will be true, I'd love to hear an all APL/NWO setup, including interfacing my headphones directly with the player. This would be a complete solution with the fewest and easiest setup.

Neil

[spritzer]

Most linear PSU don't really mind the fluctuations on the power grid but in truth there aren't any up here and if you use a dedicated line there isn't any other gear messing with the juice.

I'm very interested in his thoughts on electrostatic amps and it seems you have turned him over to the dark side...

Btw. I'm working on buying the Apl 3910 player that is on Audiogon and having it shipped to Alex for 32bit dacs and the ECC99 output stage. I would have bought a NWO but I just invested a bundle so it will have to wait. The Denon should tide me over until then.

[mikeymad]

Sorry for the delay in my notes. It was a good day, good tunes, good weather, good people. What

more could you need. After cleaning out some of the stinky, and getting the tables setup. The people started to come and the rigs started to get setup.

After spending a little time making sure my setup was working the way it should, I started poking

around at the other systems.

Here are some of my thoughts (not in order)

JP#'s Eddie Current HD2 vs. Zana Duex

Source> mac mini/wavelength cosecant

Cans> Grado RS1, GS-1000

One of the things I really wanted to listen to. I had some previous experience with the ZD, but

this was my first listen to the HD2. I listened to both the ZD and HD2 with both the RS-1 and my

GS-1000. I have to say that the HD2 was a good/beter amp than the ZD. But there is something about the ZD that kept drawing me back to it every time. I liked the HD2's power and detail, but the

warmth of the ZD (OTL) produced a great sound that I find attractive. There was nothing that the

HD2 was doing wrong, it was more that the sound that the ZD was producing was more pleasing to me.

Wow, I just looked up the price of the DAC... Wow again... The sound of these computer source

systems (this mini-mac, and laptop below), makes me feel better about moving forward with my home server system (just got my 1T Maxtor drive last week (it is full now)).

Voltron's Single Power SDS

Source> Emm Labs (2 box player)

Cans> Balanced Hd650's and SE- Grado GS-1000

This tower of power was really a great system. To get the bad out of the way first. I tried it with

my Gs-1000, and I was not very happy at all. It was sounding thin on top, it gave a very little

soundstage, even after a driver tube change. But that is just the hit and miss that I have had with

the GS-1000 and amps.

Now the Senn HD650's were the best that I have ever heard them. These were my first (real)

headphones (after the Grado 60's). I have always thought that they had potential, but I had always

thought that potential was limited. I have heard them in many ways, and have given them every

chance in the world (RSA b52, four different cables, tubes (OTL), SS), but they never measured up.

Untill now.

This showed me how far they could go. I could not find any of the faults that I always saw before

(overdone base, slightly dark). It was full of detail, power, fast, engaging. I think about getting

rid of my pair all the time. But now I think about this rig, and hold onto them a little longer.

Icarium's SinglePower SS-1

Source> Esoteric UX-1.

Cans> Balanced Qualias

I am sad to say that I didn't spend too much time with this setup (several minutes only, then I got

distracted), it was a busy table with the APL. So, all I can really say is that I was interested

enough that I would like to spend more time with it. It deserves some quality time.

Neilvg's Single Power ES2

Source> APL NWO

Cans> Senn HE90, Stax O2's

Very much the best headphone system that I have heard (thanks for bringing this), I got to spend

some more time with the HE90's than I have before. They really are special. I really like the

overall presentation. I liked the way that they sounded on my system as well (the little es-1). I

did not get to spend much time listening to the APL, but I will concur with the rest of the

comments in this regard. If I had the piles of cash, I would love to have this system. I would like

to add the He90's to my headphone collection as well, but I would like to get them for around 4-5k,

not the current asking prices. Oh well, maybe the new O2's will find their way to my home.

Foo_me's Zanden 300b

Source> Emm Labs

Cans> AKG K1000 (open grills)

Running off of Voltron's EMM this was another treat. I like the sound of the Zanden pushing the

open grill k1000's. Orchestral presentation is huge, and detailed all at once. The only think that

I had a problem with was the open grills the drivers would vibrate hairs over my ears, shoking me

back into reality. This is my fault for looking like a hippy.

Guzziguy's Singlepower Platinum Extreme

source> eXemplar Denon 2900

Cans> Grado Gs-1000, Leopardwood V3 Darth Beyers

I didn't spend that much time with Guzzy's rig (a couple of tracks). The Darths blew my head off

with bass. WOW, I could only listen to them for a little bit. First time that I thought that I had

a pair of headphones with a subwoofer. With my GS-1000's I did like the overall presentation of

the Extreme. Nice richness in the bass, and warmth through the midrange, and no harshness in the

top end.

I hope that your player made it home okay (and still works).

Ori's mystery 300b amp

source> random player into Ori DAC

Cans> K1000, Hd650's

XLR's that I tried in my system

This setup did not grab me during the meet. The 300b's pushing the k1000's, did not have the presentation and detail that I was looking for (see Foo_me's system). Maybe some new 300's would help out.

I did like the DAC/amp with the HD650's, but would not be a system that I would be looking for. It showed the problems that I have had with the HD650's (see voltrons system)

Ori let me try out the X-2 XLR against my new MIT Shotgun cables. This was a nice set of interconnects. More transparent, faster, increased micro-detail, and this was only about a 5 minute trial. Good job Ori.

Iron_Dreamer's Apogee Mini-DAC

Source> Laptop

Cans> AT L3000, Grado GS-1000, Ult Ed9

I spent a lot of time playing on this system. Mostly because I discovered that I need to have a pair of L3000's. But also I spent time listening to A Perfect Circle and Ayreon (great modern prog-rock - just buy it). My gosh, I never thought that the L3000 would sound this good. I have never been really happy with my W5000's fit, but I think that great sound is hiding in there. The L3000 fit was perfect, and the overall sound was beyond great. Just pushing them with the Mini-DAC they produced a bass with power and punch, great pace and finess in the lower midrange, and then an increadible vocal midrange, and detailed high. I NEED L3000's. These phones made me loose interest in the Ed9's faster than I thought imaginable. I know that the AT's are twice as much, but I thought that they were twice as good.

Overall a great day, and good sounds all around. Several things in the end:

• Get a pair of AT L3000's
  
• Don't worry about the Ult Ed9's
  
• Don't worry about the k1000's
  
• find a cheap pair of He90's )
  

Cheers all,

[Dusty Chalk]

I love the fact that everyone refers to him as JP#'s (I presume that's pronounced jay-pee-numbers?).

[boomana]

Nice impressions mikeymad.

I love the fact that everyone refers to him as JP#'s (I presume that's pronounced jay-pee-numbers?).

or just numbers or nums. Who wants to sit around remembering all the other stuff?

[philodox]

I've always pronounced it Jay Pee Nums.

[jp11801]

I've always pronounced it Jay Pee Nums.

the floridians typically call me johnny numbers or just numbers in the virtual world jp#s it and easier type. Wayne was first with the many permutations of my user name