November 17, 2007 East Bay SOTA Meet Impressions

[jinp6301]

ohhhhh, I want! I'm guessing it'll go around 5K?

[Nanoha]

in the simplest terms the hd-2 is a balanced zd

Wait, what? That can't be true if what Grano said was true.

[909]

iirc the hd2 is based off zd topology, though, the hd2 has a transformer while the zd is otl. what did he say?

[spritzer]

I believe it is a single ended amp using a transformer on the output with a center tapped secondary to make it differential.

[jp11801]

I believe it is a single ended amp using a transformer on the output with a center tapped secondary to make it differential.

single I don't speak tech, the amp is a balanced amp it uses two small transformers they are the 2 silver colored round parts on the rear of the amp.

Initially the amp had not much in common with the Zana as it used 6c41c tubes for power. This config was good but was slightly dry. Craig re-worked the amp and used 6c33bs. There just on the top of the amp there are some fairly different design implementaions , 2 tango transformers, 5 soy bean oil caps (Zana uses 2), transformer balanced, 12ax7 input stage and the outputs tunes are run much harder. The 6c33b in the almorro amp is run balls out and produces 18watts, this amp runs at 11 watts and the Zana significantly less. While each amp uses they same tube they are going to sound very different. The Zana is an OTL design while the HD2 is tansformer design. They have a different sound based on the above mentioned factors. The HD2 hits harderis more linear and is more dynamic while the Zana breaths more life into the music and has a softer but still very detailed sound. WHile going back and forth during the meet I could have been extremely happy with either amp.

jinp6301, if you are speaking about my amp yes it should have cost 5k based on a standard parts mark up but actually cost me much less. If you are referring to Al's amp if you bought new it is very north of 5k.

[spritzer]

Ahh so this amp is really balanced but uses input transformers. I knew Craig was working on an amp a few months back that was SE but used transformer on the output to make it differential.

[jinp6301]

Ahh, I see. Is this going to be fully released anytime soon?

[n_maher]

Ahh, I see. Is this going to be fully released anytime soon?

A similar amp, maybe, but the trafos that John's amp used are out of production so there isn't likely to be another one exactly like it any time soon.

[Nanoha]

single I don't speak tech, the amp is a balanced amp it uses two small transformers they are the 2 silver colored round parts on the rear of the amp.

Initially the amp had not much in common with the Zana as it used 6c41c tubes for power. This config was good but was slightly dry. Craig re-worked the amp and used 6c33bs. There just on the top of the amp there are some fairly different design implementaions , 2 tango transformers, 5 soy bean oil caps (Zana uses 2), transformer balanced, 12ax7 input stage and the outputs tunes are run much harder. The 6c33b in the almorro amp is run balls out and produces 18watts, this amp runs at 11 watts and the Zana significantly less. While each amp uses they same tube they are going to sound very different. The Zana is an OTL design while the HD2 is tansformer design. They have a different sound based on the above mentioned factors. The HD2 hits harderis more linear and is more dynamic while the Zana breaths more life into the music and has a softer but still very detailed sound. WHile going back and forth during the meet I could have been extremely happy with either amp.

jinp6301, if you are speaking about my amp yes it should have cost 5k based on a standard parts mark up but actually cost me much less. If you are referring to Al's amp if you bought new it is very north of 5k.

Thanks for the details. Sounds like an awesome amp!

So my guess was right; the Zana and the HD-2 are inherently different beasts.

[jinp6301]

jinp6301, if you are speaking about my amp yes it should have cost 5k based on a standard parts mark up but actually cost me much less. If you are referring to Al's amp if you bought new it is very north of 5k.

Your amp is a basic "stock" HD2? I cant really figure out who owns what from the pictures

[Nanoha]

Your amp is a basic "stock" HD2? I cant really figure out who owns what from the pictures

I thought both of them were custom.

[guzziguy]

I got up to SJ on Friday and then spent the evening with JP. The Englander seems to be his favorite place as that's where we went for dinner. Not being a beer conoisseur, I drank what JP did. What all did I drink JP? I seem to remember Pliny as being one of them. All were quite good and I only had a small headache Saturday morning.

I showed up early at the meet with JP. Almost immediately two other members showed up, Mikeymad and Iron Dreamer. The four of us set up the tables and chairs. JP then set up the fan to remove as much of the lingering odor as possible from the morning work out class. The fan worked and Zocaro turned out to be an excellent place at which to hold a meet. I suspect that many more meets will be held there.

I was amazed at some of the systems that showed up. At $6K, I had one of the "budget" systems there. I didn't get to hear everything but really liked everything I heard. I had friend show up for his first meet and spent a lot of time helping him. Being the social butterfly that I am, I also spent a lot of time renewing old acquaintances, making new friends and talking with most everybody. Eventually I packed up and left at 5:20 and got back to Santa Barbara at 10:10. I was pretty out of it yesterday and it turned into a "lost" day. So here are my late impressions.

Ori's prototype amp/dac combo:

Ori was showing a prototype desktop SS amp/dac package that he'll have available in a couple of weeks. The prototype wasn't exactly the same as the advertized finished product in that it had a pot whereas the product will have a stepped attenuation. He was driving it with a cheap ($100) DVD player. I didn't recognize the cable between them.

I listened to it with both my mod'ed K340s and my Darths. I was surprised to find that it was easily able to drive the K340s. The music through them was coherent and well integrated. So many amps at this price level just do a poor job driving them. I really liked the sound through both headphones. This set up would make for a great work setup. I made sure that my friend heard this too. I think that Ori has a real competitor on his hands.

Voltron's "Tower of Power"

I first listened to this right after he got it started and before it was really warmed up using his (I think) Sennheiser HD-650. I heard the classic "Sennheiser Veil" and moved on. Later I talked to Al about it and he said that not only was the amp not warmed up, but the EMM combo's clock was misconfigured too. So I listened to it first through his balanced HD-600s. Wow, it sounded great. This was the first time I've liked listening to the high end Senns. I also tried my K340s and they sounded great too. I did side by side comparisons and slightly preferred the Senns. Not enough to go for Al's set up though!

MikeyMike's ES-1/Marantz/Omega 2

This was a really nice system. This meet was the first time that I really have been able to listen to high end electrostatic headphones. It has all the advantages of good electrostatic transducers and few of the disadvantages. In fact, I would have considered this a contender for best system at the meet. That is, until I heard ...

NeilVG's ES-2/APL NWO Mk 3/HE-90

This is the best headphone combo I've every heard in my short (1.5 years) headphone career. Everything sounded right to me. It was quick, dynamic and bass was very present but not overwhelming. I got to hear the HE-90s and Omega-2's side by side on this system and way preferred the HE-90's. They just sounded much more life like to me. Details and timbre were so life like. Attack and decay were "right" too.

If I win the lottery any time in the future, I'll have a system similar to this. In the meantime, I'm still very happy with my system.

Lastly, I_D's great pics of Satan's Delicious Sound reminded me that I wanted to thank GuzziGuy for jump-starting my amp. The regulators on the PS have to ignite and require a fair amount of juice and/or a healthy light source. The cafe was over-taxed and under-powered to begin with so I couldn't ignite more than two tubes at first. I set it to four tubes and switched on the plates but no ignition. The only lamp was a cheesy fluouresant so that wouldn't do. We had the idea to try using a camera flash and Ken stepped up with his dinky digital. One flash and POP went four tubes! That was funny as hell and really made me believe Mikhail's comments about either using light to ignite.

I really didn't think that my tiny point-and-shoot camera would be enough, but thought "what the hell, let's try it". I have the picture and will post it and others in the near future.

I had a fun time with guzziguy's rig. It's not the most extended or resolving setup out there, but what it does have in spades is bass punch and midrange goodness. The Extreme sounded much better to me than any of the other sub-$3k Singlepower amps ever have. The combo of it and the Exemplar Denon 2900 really had me rocking out with the L3000. The Darth Beyers, which I'd never heard before, really did have an almost comically huge bass (I'd swear more bass than the stock DT770, but it's been years since I've heard one). I think they might sound a lot better with the port holes covered, which should greaty reduce resonance. They certainly look excellent and lack the stock 770's upper-midrange harshness. The K340 had an excellent midrange that played well to the system's strength.

Thanks Peter. I value your opinion highly. I am a mid-range freak and this system really does it for me. I may tire of it eventually, but feel no urge to change it at the present time.

These DB's are more bass heavy than the other two pairs that I have heard. I'm hoping that I can get it to sound more like the other pairs, either with more break-in or by further modding it. I'll tape over the ports as you suggested and see what that does.

Again, I had a great time at the meet. I suspect it will be a long time before there is another meet with such high end systems. Vicki, you really should have come out!

[boomana]

Hi, guzziguy. Nice to see you here. I wish I could have been at the meet, but I'm trying to talk John into throwing another in February when I can get some time off work and come out for a visit. Any help in this area would be appreciated.

[tyrion]

Hi, guzziguy. Nice to see you here. I wish I could have been at the meet, but I'm trying to talk John into throwing another in February when I can get some time off work and come out for a visit. Any help in this area would be appreciated.

February might be when I head out there.

[boomana]

Then we need to get a plan. Birthday boy should start getting this together now. Do you think we can get Gene in on this?

[tyrion]

Then we need to get a plan. Birthday boy should start getting this together now. Do you think we can get Gene in on this?

Gene who? I will send him an email to see what's up. He was missing in action before the big crash. I will start working on my wife for time off. I'm camping at Langerado for 4 days in the beginning of March so it will take some work.

[boomana]

I can actually do Langerado this year since my schedule change. Nice.

[jp11801]

Your amp is a basic "stock" HD2? I cant really figure out who owns what from the pictures

Craig built this amp with the intention of keeping it as his persoanl amp if I did not buy it, it is as stock as a one off commisioned amp is stock

[jp11801]

Then we need to get a plan. Birthday boy should start getting this together now. Do you think we can get Gene in on this?

If Florida comes to Cali we'll have a meet

[jinp6301]

Craig built this amp with the intention of keeping it as his persoanl amp if I did not buy it, it is as stock as a one off commisioned amp is stock

ohh ok, sorry about the stupid questions. Who owns the Zana btw? You?

[boomana]

If Florida comes to Cali we'll have a meet

If you build it, we will come.

ohh ok, sorry about the stupid questions. Who owns the Zana btw? You?

I think it's granodemostasa's (did I get that right?...long names confuse)

[neilvg]

The NWO will be at more meets and you will too, one of these days.

Al, are you speaking for me or for yourself? Getting me to lug that thing will definitely have to involve some sort of incentive in the future. But you, you my man... me thinks the NWO bug might have bit you hard. It really is good and I have done side by side comparisons all evening. While I love the EMM sound, it is akin to the romantic HE90/HEV90 sound to me. It has a pronunciation in the midrange, I wouldn't have necessarily called it a major coloration before, but compared to the NWO it's easy to hear. The extension the NWO places over the music is stunning, but it is able to do this without hurting my ears. Sibilants, and high frequency transients are smooth and ultra-refined, but don't seem to be rolled off like the EMM seems to portray them (plus we have that romantic midrange). Down below, the bass of the EMM just doesn't cut it anymore (after comparison). The NWO gives that deeper heavier more impact full Esoteric house bass which I can even hear as 'low' down as my DV50. But in addition, the NWO goes deeper and I have never heard extension and impact so clear and articulated with my HE90's.

This player is extremely resolving and it tells you what it wants! After coming home from the meet, the next morning, I hooked it up to my speaker rig and just did a quick and dirty listen. Stock power cord into the wall, 1 monoblock had a stock cord into my Hydra, the other had a VD cord but into a power strip, etc... I compared it side by side my Esoreric DV-50 optically connected to the Esoteric D70 DAC. That combo actually sounds O.K. But when I plugged the NWO in this state, WOW! Later that evening, I connected the system the way I thought I wanted to. I used VD everywhere, the NWO into the wall, the monoblocks into the Powerplant Premier (which I got back from Min), and isolation platforms all around etc...

...the sound? It was 'aiight'. But not like that morning. It seems to be lacking. So out came the platforms. Hmm.. better, but not really better, just sort of perceptually so. Out came the premier. Now we were getting somewhere. Lastly... out came the VD interconnects and in went Ori X-2.

Ahhh... there it is. So now I have to put it back and see if it really is JUST the X-2 at this point. I think I may have to go and try the silver route. I think this player just really has a preference, and it is minimal. The VD stuff mates well with the HE90's and ES2, but deadens my speaker rig too much. I'll have to experiment more on both fronts.

I'm actually considering giving this player back to Alex...

...but not because I'm returning it! Relax This shit is amazing, even at its "I could have paid for a new Audio A4 in cash' price tag. At the meet Alex told me he could make an adapter so that I could get two XLR outs instead of the 1 pair I have right now. But if this system is really going to overtake mt EMM, shouldn't it have (or at least shouldn't I inquire) for the possibility of having:

2 or 3 XLR outs, 1 SPDIF IN, 1 ANALOG IN. Hell, maybe even an RCA out. He told me he could have easily added 1 more XLR our if he had known. But looking inside, I believe there is at least room for another. As it is, I have 1 XLR out and 1 SPDIF in. But Analog IN and more XLR outs? Move over DCC2, there's a 1 box unit in town that's more flexible than you! And you know how it is with flexibility... once you've experienced the benefits and possibility of all those positions...

...I'm still talking about Audio (sort of!). I can have video, audio, cable, satellite, headphone and speaker in this baby ALL at once. That second remote will really get its use. But I'll have to inquire further with Alex. I don't want it to take.. oh, say, another 8 months.

Right now the EMM and NWO are sitting side by side, but the EMM is definitely getting ignored. And not like an older sibling that isn't getting the attention they once did because a younger baby is in town. No, more like, when you have a school bully that no one really likes but everyone sort of fears gets his ass kicked by some new transfer who stuided in both Japan and Bulgaria, and can simultaneously perform esoteric feets of Kung Fu AND the Vulcan Mind Melt.

Ok, to be fair, people do like bully's. As as a bully, the EMM is intelligent and thoughtful. Ok, what am I talking about? See, it's that NWO daze that I'm in. Oh yes, to carry on. I didn't think that the player would see enough benefit being used for my headphone rig. But the ES2/NWO combo is much more syngergistic than the ES2/EMM since both are very very clear and resolving, yet deliver their sound in a euphonic-type package (or maybe the better word is refined). The EMM labs just sounds too much like it is holding something back, even though the sound itself is gorgeous. The words that the 'APL fanatics' use on the APL site like - Picture versus actually being in the Scene, really does seem to apply. And I usually don't warm to a source right away. But the APL had it in spades immediately, and it apparently gets a lot better.

---

The other rig I really really liked was Al's Senn/Satan setup. I didn't care for it with the 701's really, but those Senn's were amazing. I thought that combo was easily just as enjoyable, albeit with a different feel, as the ES2/NWO setup. I can only imagine what an NWO would do to that beast. What's more Satanic than Satan? Well, Satan's New World Order would be. He wouldn't be confined to hell any longer

---

I didn't really get a chance to hear Min's rig, but I looooved it the last time I heard it. I think the sound is so very different than mine though. Someone commented on how it was like a Herman Miller Aeron (Min's) compared to say, a thick and Rich (but ultimately bad for your back? - added by me) leather chair. Hmmm...

---

I've been curious about the Qualias and always assumed that I couldn't get a right fit. Well I heard them with the $500 headbands. I could only listen for precious little time. And not because I didn't have time, but because I can't stand the sound! Sorry guys, sorry Dan. This headphone goes against my religion it seems. Or at the least, my philosophy and desire when it comes to headphones. I like it natural, a little relaxed, euphonic, non-fatiguing, clear, clean, detailed, but mostly, as lifelike as possible. I don't think the Qualias do realism, or naturalness at all. Hi hats and snare hits sound hollow to me still, and sort of broken. I guess I just love the Sennheiser tone.

---

I didn't get to compare the ES-1 all that much to my ES-2. We'd need a more controlled environment for that I think. However, as stated earlier by Iron Dreamer, the O2 and HE90 could not be any more different from each other. If people want a case study in how associated equipment, and equipment matching in general, can have a tremendous effect or the headphone, this difference was positively Epiphanic (not sure if that is a real word, but close enough).

Ok, enough for now. Great meet, had loads of fun. Hope to see you all soon. If anyone wants a further a listen, a get together at my current location (especially before I move) might be in order. Something SMALL.

Neil

[granodemostasa]

yea, i know that NWO is great, but at least put the Emm labs in a set up where it will get some love (work rig, tv rig, anything but idleness!)

[jp11801]

Neil please keep me in mind for a mini I would love to hear the NWO with speakers and with headphones in a quieter setting, at one point I almost yelled STFU while I was listening to the NWO. IT was soooo good, hopefully Alex can get is set up to be used conveniently as a balanced hp amp and source.

[boomana]

Neil, are you moving before February? John's going to be hosting another meet that the Florida crew will attend and Aaron (honorary Florida member) as well. Willing to make a pilgrimage to hear the NWO as well as other goodness.