Speakers, high voltages, watts, etc

[deepak]

Reks should start up a speaker forum, since starting new forums seems to be the fotm

edit: split from "What are the best headphones ever" because it went way off topic

[aerius]

never forget.

Forget what?

[spritzer]

We will get him back once he's heard a fully optimized SR-007 setup...

Resisting the allure of high voltage is futile...

[aerius]

Then he gets introduced to Quad ESL-57's...

[spritzer]

Did you hear a restored set? I'm going to get some fully restored with 3um diaphragms and other tasty mods. They are IMHO the best speaker ever made though far from being perfect

[spritzer]

i don't know if they were restored, there were at the house of a casual acquaintance. i'm not a huge fan of Electrostatic speakers to begin with, and i thought that a good friend's Martin-Logan Prodigies (plus Descent sub) were considerably better than the Quads, and i don't even like the Prodigies that much...

A properly restored set is breathtaking but they sure aren't for everybody. They are also incredibly picky...

[philodox]

How old are these speakers that they must be 'properly restored' to sound their best? Is there a current model that is equivalent?

[aerius]

The 57 in ESL-57 refers to the year in which they were introduced...

[philodox]

Makes sense in that case. Is there an ESL-2007?

[Dusty Chalk]

Yeah, except they're called the ESL-988, ESL-989 and the ESL-2805, ESL-2905.

[spritzer]

It was never called the "57" by Quad, just The ESL, but after the newer model was released it was added to separate them. They were introduced in '55 and began production in '57 only two years before Stax had finalized the SR-1.

The "new" speakers are basically the ESL63 (introduced in 1982 but the design work started in '63) built cheaper and with crappy materials and the "9" models throw on two extra bass panels. Nobody at Quad knows how to design an ESL so they are still making the same stupid mistakes and errors that were present in the original design. They still sound great and do things no multi driver speaker can do. They were also built for normal people and not audiophiles and thats why there are so many of them around.

The sad part is that Quad has never made much money from these speaker over the last 50 years so they need to be restored by caring hands to sound like they should. The 57's need to be completely rebuilt with new thinner diaphragms, clamping boards to prevent them from arcing and new stands that raise them higher and present a firm base for the speakers to push against. The 63's and it's later versions need a stiffer housing and to have the drivers completely rebuilt as there is a fatal flaw where they come apart due to cheap glue.

My next move after I've collected all the electrostatic headphones I want to own it to start collecting ESL's. I have a set of 63's that are residing at a friends house as I'm getting a fully rebuilt and updated set later on.

[philodox]

Sounds like you should just get a better electrostatic speaker to begin with rather than bothering with all that...

[spritzer]

Sounds like you should just get a better electrostatic speaker to begin with rather than bothering with all that...

That is a perfectly valid point but there aren't any other options out there. The speakers would set you back 3-6k with mods depending on what is done and who does it and for 10k you can have stacked 57's i.e. two speakers each side that make a single line source. You can even go triple or quad stacked...

At this price there is nothing that can beat them unless you can snag a newish Sound Lab with the new panels. There is the new RAM speaker but it was just released, Martin Logan and Innersound aren't all that great and Audiostatic has lost its way.

[philodox]

Damn, someone needs to step up.

[aerius]

The sad part is that Quad has never made much money from these speaker over the last 50 years so they need to be restored by caring hands to sound like they should. The 57's need to be completely rebuilt with new thinner diaphragms, clamping boards to prevent them from arcing and new stands that raise them higher and present a firm base for the speakers to push against.

Kinda like this...

[spritzer]

Damn, someone needs to step up.

Designers are very reluctant to get in the ESL game as it is much harder then order up some drive units, throw together a simple textbook crossover and put it in a fancy box. You have to make everything for the ESL's as there are very few stock options and they take a lot of skill and deep knowledge to get right.

Kinda like this...

That's a step in the right direction but I like the steel frame models more as you can tilt the speakers and have more mass to play with.

[philodox]

I'm advanced. Seriously though, that sounds cool... it is dynamic though, so spritzer no likey.

[Dusty Chalk]

Electrostatic panels are much harder to make than drivers. Most importantly, they are very easy to get wrong. You basically need to have a consistent distance between the two stators, and the larger you make the panel, the harder that is. And you need large panels to get any bass at all. You should read the recent interview with the Martin Logan guy for a very honest appraisal -- from, amongst other perspectives, a business point-of-view -- of the process.

spritzer -- you heard Final? I only ask because you didn't mention them. I've heard really good things about Final, except that, like the Quads, they beam. Of course, I've heard similarly good things said about Innersound.

I'm actually a big fan of Martin Logan, and am seriously considering getting a pair. We'll see, it's not going to happen any time soon.

[spritzer]

how is that any different from what Thiel does? they have advanced cabinets, advanced cross overs, and they build their own drivers. everything is built in house, and impeccably designed.

Thiel are one of the few dynamic manufacturers with any sense to make their own units but it's still childsplay compared to an ESL design.

Electrostatic panels are much harder to make than drivers. Most importantly, they are very easy to get wrong. You basically need to have a consistent distance between the two stators, and the larger you make the panel, the harder that is. And you need large panels to get any bass at all. You should read the recent interview with the Martin Logan guy for a very honest appraisal -- from, amongst other perspectives, a business point-of-view -- of the process.

spritzer -- you heard Final? I only ask because you didn't mention them. I've heard really good things about Final, except that, like the Quads, they beam. Of course, I've heard similarly good things said about Innersound.

I'm actually a big fan of Martin Logan, and am seriously considering getting a pair. We'll see, it's not going to happen any time soon.

There are formulas for all of this but math and a working driver are two very different things.

I haven't heard Final yet but I'm trying to score a cheap set to try out. They look great but the shared bias/distribution box idea is a bad one. Innersound of old when Sanders ran the business was pretty good but the current one is a joke. They stole the company from him and tripled the prices.

All ESL's will beam no matter what the sales brochure says. There are two ways to combat this with either the curved panel, which has its own huge problems, and with the staggered arc, which does work but makes the drivers go from complicated to insane. Quad did use a diffuser on the treble panel on the 57 to decrease the beaming but that isn't a good thing either. Most of the design work put into the 63 went into making the phantom point source system work.

The problem with M-L is that they aren't focused on performance first. They still use 12um film to have it integrate better with the woofer instead of just designing a better one. I've heard that replacing the film with 3um mylar helps them a lot and that is first on my list when I get a CLS.

[postjack]

HD650

[DigiPete]

Mogami recabled K701s driven by a Dynamite

[laxx]

That is a perfectly valid point but there aren't any other options out there. The speakers would set you back 3-6k with mods depending on what is done and who does it and for 10k you can have stacked 57's i.e. two speakers each side that make a single line source. You can even go triple or quad stacked...

At this price there is nothing that can beat them unless you can snag a newish Sound Lab with the new panels. There is the new RAM speaker but it was just released, Martin Logan and Innersound aren't all that great and Audiostatic has lost its way.

I've been meaning to go try out a family friend's Audiostatic speakers from the 80's. He says shortly after he bought his pair, the company went to shit. =T

[spritzer]

I've been meaning to go try out a family friend's Audiostatic speakers from the 80's. He says shortly after he bought his pair, the company went to shit. =T

Audiostatic made some good speakers but they were built to be cheap so some pretty severe mods are needed to make them shine.

[purk]

Sennheiver HE90+HEV90 and following closely by SDS-SE+R10. Let's see how far can the ES-1 takes HE90.

[laxx]

Audiostatic made some good speakers but they were built to be cheap so some pretty severe mods are needed to make them shine.

He also said they were really good for their price. ($4,000 back in the 80's? At least that's how much he paid, don't know the retail price.)