Impressions: RS-1 & K340

[MaloS]

I was not attempting to invalidate your opinion, just stating why I am backing out.So, I'm the only one around here that's not allowed to give Jacob a hard time for backing out of headphones?

Iono man, your k340 seems to be optimized for listening via cat whiskers... sure you are in the headphone and not whisker transmitters anymore?

(I'll add replies later if anything, gotta go to class and grow smart).

[philodox]

plenty of people here give me a hard time for it. is that what you were doing?

That is what I was doing in that post. Sorry if it came across as some sort of dismissal.

Mainly, I just don't want to argue about why I preferred bowl pads. I'm sure that I will spend more time with all variety of Grado pads when I actually get a set... and who knows, I might agree with you.

Well ok then. You cannot quote my rig for lacking power, my amplifier has more power than yours could ever produce.

Sorry, what amp?

I wasn't just talking amp btw, many of the headphones themselves sound different.

Cannot quote my rig for lacking tubes (it has a few). Cannot quote my rig for being single-ended and thus weak (cause guess what, differential drive all the way), cannot quote my rig for having poor k340 (fully modded by Larry, including cables and 4-pin XLR), cannot quote my rig for crappy source, although it is not the most marvelous. It does reproduce deep bass though, my speakers answer for that one just fine.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "cannot quote my rig". It is great that you had them modded by Larry, he does the K340 mods very well. Even modded though, they don't all sound identical.

My setup has issue with bass impact usually because the fit does not work very well with my head, but i can use my hands to get it there for critical listening. (Humans are very evolved creatures). I do not listen very loud because I like my hearing.

And now you are telling me that your K340 rig will touch the sub-bass work on Hallucinogen's In Dub? Fill me in on what you did to your k340? Is there a subwoofer upgrade anywhere in the room?

"Hallucinogen's In Dub"? Cant say I've heard it. All I am 'telling you' is that I am happy with the bass in my K340 setup. Clearly you aren't. This could either be personal preference or some variation in the sound of our two systems.

Not sure why you took my comment so harshly.

[philodox]

it came across, to me at least, as silly and petty. it's cool, dude.

I can see how it would come across that way. It is not how I meant it. Wrote the post with a smile, not a grimace.

it's hard to say. i used to play in symphony orchestras, so one of my bass tests is whether speakers, or headphones, accurately produce the weight of a bunch of bass violins banging away (no amplified system will ever produce the timbre and texture, in my opinion, as the bass register is the most changed by the amplification process, but the weight can be replicated, and replicated well). Grados with flats kinda sorta do it. Grados with bowls don't come close. if you don't like the weight of a bass section, then you aren't going to like the flats.

I can understand that, and actually, with Jazz and Classical is when I really liked the flats. Was too much for Rock and Electronica though, and that is mainly what I listen to.

[deepak]

So, I'm the only one around here that's not allowed to give Jacob a hard time for backing out of headphones?

No because he made the right choice

Exceptional speakers kill even the best headphone setup (IMO).

edit: at least with my M^3 I could never be fully satisfied with the bass on either of my K340s, which led me to the L3000. Which sounds more real to me for most of the music I listen to.

[philodox]

No because he made the right choice.

For him, yes, it sounds like he did.

[recstar24]

You cannot quote my rig for lacking power, my amplifier has more power than yours could ever produce.

Oh oh...I hope you guys realize what this banter will turn into. It starts with this:

"Hey my amp has more power than yours!!!"

"No it doesn't, my amp has more power!!!"

"No!!!! I'm telling!"

Eventually it will turn to this:

"Mine is bigger! It's way bigger!!!"

"No it's not! Mine is bigger!!!"

"Your wrong! Mine is the biggest!"

Soon enough both parties will whip it out and have to show them side by side to prove who is the biggest man on campus

[philodox]

It might have if I hadn't laid out my response with so much tact.

I'm awesome.

[recstar24]

It might have if I hadn't laid out my response with so much tact.

I'm awesome.

Tis true - sometimes to be the bigger man, you just need to keep it inside. I am not sure how many of us would actually want to...um....see it

[Dusty Chalk]

Oh oh...I hope you guys realize what this banter will turn into. It starts with this:

"Hey my amp has more power than yours!!!"

"No it doesn't, my amp has more power!!!"

"No!!!! I'm telling!"

Eventually it will turn to this:

"Mine is bigger! It's way bigger!!!"

"No it's not! Mine is bigger!!!"

"Your wrong! Mine is the biggest!"

Soon enough both parties will whip it out and have to show them side by side to prove who is the biggest man on campus

I hate when that happens.

[MaloS]

Not sure why you took my comment so harshly.

Well, I did not mean to do this aggressively, but I am trying to see what the differences are. I am just having trouble believing that a K340 system can do very deep bass. It does not mean one cannot be happy with its sound, for jazz I love going to K340. But bass is just not what k340 will be ever able to do seriously, at least not any of the 7 pairs I have heard.

And my whole list of things is to quote what I have done with regards to improving it...it just does not seem feasible that after all this, certain quality of it is quoted to be vastly different from what it is. None of the K340s I have heard went below 40, and for the most part they begin to sharply roll-off after 60.

[fierce_freak]

I'm just glad we can tweak the sound...some people swear by flats (I was one of them with the lower end Grados), others go with the bowls (like I do now). On my setup with my music, the bowls are a better choice for me. I understand the appeal of the flats, though...who doesn't love some bass in ya face 4eva, word.

[aerius]

And my whole list of things is to quote what I have done with regards to improving it...it just does not seem feasible that after all this, certain quality of it is quoted to be vastly different from what it is. None of the K340s I have heard went below 40, and for the most part they begin to sharply roll-off after 60.

Really odd, my pair doesn't start rolling off until you get below 30-35 or so, but once it does it drops like a rock, pretty much nothing below 26-27Hz. There's another pair I know of that's been measured to go cleanly down to the low 30's, but it doesn't roll off as sharply as mine.

[philodox]

None of the K340s I have heard went below 40, and for the most part they begin to sharply roll-off after 60.

Though I think they do go below 40, there is not really much left below there anyways... at least not in music.

[recstar24]

uh yeah, there is

Pretty much musical fundamentals, the lower lower overtones that sort of give music its weight, body, and power...minor details

[philodox]

uh yeah, there is

Care to give an example where a rolloff at 40hz will be audible/noticeable? I didn't say there was nothing below 40hz on music, I said not much... as in nothing that you'd miss. Maybe it is the type of music I listen to or we listen for different things, but I stand by that.

Pretty much musical fundamentals, the lower lower overtones that sort of give music its weight, body, and power...minor details.

Damn, I must have missed that music fundamentals course.

[recstar24]

Damn, I must have missed that music fundamentals course.

* Very short and quick music theory lesson *

When you hear a sound, or a musical note, that sound is not simply composed of one particular sound. It is composed of many different sounds. We call those overtones. For example, if a sound is produced at 50 hz, not only are you hearing the 50 hz sound, but also the next overtones at 100 hz, and another at 150, then 200, etc. For all practical purposes you usually go up to the 8th or 8th harmonic series of overtones, but really intricate instruments like a cymbal crash their overtone series can go really high.

Take that same 50 hz sound, the actual pitch at 50 hz is what is referred to as the fundamental. That needs to be solid in order to have a good sense of pitch, power, dynamics, etc. However, there are some traces of sound at its halfway point, 25 hz, and every half way point underneath that, which all adds up to what we perceive as the fundamental point of the harmonic series.

For reference, 50 hz is low low E, the lowest string on the bass guitar.

[philodox]

Interesting, maybe I should pick up a tone generator to see how low they go on my setup. The documentation says they go to 20hz, of course.

Thanks for the quick and dirty lesson Ryan, very informative. I think I understand what you are getting at, and though I can't be certain, I'd say that bass guitar sounds pretty accurate on my rig. Audible memory is a funny thing though, so who knows.

[humanflyz]

I don't know, I haven't found a headphone setup yet that can somehow trick me into thinking that I'm at a live show. I think the biggest reason for me is just the dynamics.

[MaloS]

Though I think they do go below 40, there is not really much left below there anyways...

There is a reason I mentioned one album before...and it is just an example.

Bass drums sit on pretty much everything between 10 hz and up from there.

^.^

+ I learned that apparently specs rarely hold...very very rarely...

[aerius]

Care to give an example where a rolloff at 40hz will be audible/noticeable? I didn't say there was nothing below 40hz on music, I said not much... as in nothing that you'd miss. Maybe it is the type of music I listen to or we listen for different things, but I stand by that.

Piano, organ, acoustic & electric bass, tympani, bass drums, reggae beats, synth lines, and of course cannonfire.

Example. Tori Amos' Bosendorfer Imperial Grand piano, it has the sub bass keys that go down to 16Hz IIRC. Even if she isn't playing those notes, the strings will still vibrate and contribute to the sound when she plays any of the lower bass notes. You'll hear this quite a few times on her "Boys for Pele" album, without the low bass her piano sounds completely wrong.

I don't know, I haven't found a headphone setup yet that can somehow trick me into thinking that I'm at a live show. I think the biggest reason for me is just the dynamics.

My RS-1 and K340 can do it at times, but not often, and only with the right music.

That's why I do drugs, so I can trick myself more often.

[deepak]

Don't forget fireworks

[philodox]

I think the biggest reason for me is just the dynamics.

Yeah, that is what usually does it for me too.

Piano, organ, acoustic & electric bass, tympani, bass drums, reggae beats, synth lines, and of course cannonfire.

Example. Tori Amos' Bosendorfer Imperial Grand piano, it has the sub bass keys that go down to 16Hz IIRC. Even if she isn't playing those notes, the strings will still vibrate and contribute to the sound when she plays any of the lower bass notes. You'll hear this quite a few times on her "Boys for Pele" album, without the low bass her piano sounds completely wrong.

Hmmm... Well, not sure if I've heard those notes before, or heard them properly, but I certainly enjoy that album on my rig. What sort of speaker setup would you need to properly play that sort of note? If it is 16Hz and Ryan's halving theory holds true, you'd need to get down to 4Hz to REALLY hear everything there.

[MaloS]

Yeah, that is what usually does it for me too. ;)Hmmm... Well, not sure if I've heard those notes before, or heard them properly, but I certainly enjoy that album on my rig. What sort of speaker setup would you need to properly play that sort of note? If it is 16Hz and Ryan's halving theory holds true, you'd need to get down to 4Hz to REALLY hear everything there.

If you want to go by Ryan's theory, things are not discrete and you need down to 0 (4, 2, 1, 1/2, 1/4, power series around (1/2)^p)

You would need the speakers because 16 hz is sub-bass and headphones cannot get the resonance properly for you to hear it (save select ones that have mucho mucho bass).

[aerius]

Don't forget fireworks

Speaking of which, you must download this file!

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/Finale4.ZIP

Fireworks with full dynamics and no compression. Crank it up and wait for the big booms at the end.

[philodox]

Is it enjoyable listening to fireworks? I've always gone to watch more than listen personally...