Mnaufacturer Forum?

[hirsch]

Eric made some very good points in this thread:

http://www.head-case.org/index.php/topic,238.0.html

So we are faced with a situation that another forum we all know faced.

1) We want to know about manufacturers' new products.

2) We don't want manufacturers promoting products through Head-Case discussion forums or photo galleries.

3) We have no mechanism for a manufacturer telling us that a product exists until someone has actually gone out and bought one.

The situation is one that lends itself to shilling, and a fair amount of that has indeed occurred in another forum. However, that forum has gone to extremes, so that anyone posting about new products (at least from certain manufacturers) becomes a suspect shill. I'd like to see Head-Case dodge that particular bullet, so that members could post about their new purchases without having to dodge that kind of suspicion. Best way would be to create a situation where the practice is simply not needed.

As long as Head-Case is staying non-commercial, I'd suggest the creation of a manufacturer forum where manufacturers could post freely about their products, provided they followed certain rules of conduct (talking about their own products, not someone else's). This would allow "commercial" posting of sorts, but it would keep it concentrated in one place where members could choose to go or not. At least it would be labelled and identifiable, rather than surreptitious and hidden through shills and fake "reviews". In the future, if Head-Case decided to accept outside contributions to offset costs, this could become something like the "buy-a-thread" option in another place, perhaps with a sliding scale for DIY vs. established manufacturers.

I think that this might be one way to encourage manufacturer participation without spamming up the discussion areas. "Shilling" would be reduced, since manufacturers would have a place to post directly, and members would have a way to find out about new products directly from a manufacturer. IMO this would avoid some of the more draconian and downright bizarre manipulations practiced in another forum that were originally intended to keep it non-commercial, but now appear to be completely random.

[tkam]

One of the ideas about this particular subject thats been floating around in my head is to create a manufacturer forum, and give each manufacturer their own child forum underneath that. Manufacturers could use this to announce new products or answer questions about current products that members want to ask. My only concern is that if the manufacturers don't participate in their own child forum the whole idea becomes some what of a waste of time.

[elnero]

I think this offers a reasonable solution.

The worst case would be to not allow manufacturers to post about their products at all, much like that other forum. IMO that only encourages the "shilling" and personally I'd rather have the manufacturer post and know who is actually posting than any sort of covert promotion.

[elnero]

One of the ideas about this particular subject thats been floating around in my head is to create a manufacturer forum, and give each manufacturer their own child forum underneath that. Manufacturers could use this to announce new products or answer questions about current products that members want to ask. My only concern is that if the manufacturers don't participate in their own child forum the whole idea becomes some what of a waste of time.

Sounds much like how Audio Circles is setup. If the manufacturer asks for a forum I would think they would be inclined to participate.

[mjg]

One of the ideas about this particular subject thats been floating around in my head is to create a manufacturer forum, and give each manufacturer their own child forum underneath that. Manufacturers could use this to announce new products or answer questions about current products that members want to ask. My only concern is that if the manufacturers don't participate in their own child forum the whole idea becomes some what of a waste of time.

it will be an administrative nightmare as well.... constantly adding new forums for every little guy that popsup?

How about one manafacturer forum and let manafacturers have their own threads. Just a thought.

[PFKMan23]

Just from a logistical standpoint I like the idea of one manufacturers forum with threads for each manufacturer/product or whatnot...

[hungrych]

If you look at diyaudio they have a "Vendor's Bazaar", where each manufacturer has their own thread, which seems the best way to go. If the thread gets long and complex enough, they could get seperate threads for each product or something.

[hirsch]

it will be an administrative nightmare as well.... constantly adding new forums for every little guy that popsup?

How about one manafacturer forum and let manafacturers have their own threads. Just a thought.

The idea of a single manufacturer forum was what I was thinking about when I posted. IMO the thought of a child forum for each manufacturer is downright terrifying. They'd multiply like rabbits. Keeping it as simple as possible is good

[tkam]

Haha ok, so a single forum with each manufacturer getting their own thread. Now one more question, should we automatically give manufacturers a thread? Or only those that want one?

[mjg]

start the threads for them i guess.

let them ask for them. its just to keep the place tidy i guess, not to be mean....

[hirsch]

Haha ok, so a single forum with each manufacturer getting their own thread. Now one more question, should we automatically give manufacturers a thread? Or only those that want one?

Why clutter the space with empty threads? I'd say open the forum, and let manufacturers start their own threads if they want to.

The main rule I'd think would apply would be that they can only discuss their own products, not anyone else's (nor should anyone ask them about somebody else's product). That should apply to PM and email as well. Further, a manufacturer that uses Head-Case PM or email to send unrequested sales information should be shut off from those facilities. Any sales activity must be initiated by the potential buyer. Damn. I hate rules but just came up with a handful.

[philodox]

If we do go with little child forums for every manufacturer, I'm going to have to start making something... I think I could whip up some rainbow foil or something of that magnitude. Do they get to name their forums too? Hmmm, Philo's Playhouse... has a nice ring to it.

[Dusty Chalk]

I like this suggestion a lot, and would like to take it one step further -- open shilling. For example, I'm a big Beyer fan, I could post in the open shilling/manufacturer forum about the new "Manufactory" site, and I could do so in there without worrying about being labelled as a street teamer, since I already am admitting to doing so, just by posting in the forum.

Would that be okay? Or do we only want "official" members of the company posting in that forum?

[eric343]

One of the ideas about this particular subject thats been floating around in my head is to create a manufacturer forum, and give each manufacturer their own child forum underneath that. Manufacturers could use this to announce new products or answer questions about current products that members want to ask. My only concern is that if the manufacturers don't participate in their own child forum the whole idea becomes some what of a waste of time.

One forum has already tried this:

http://ipastudio.com/forums/

If you take a closer look, you'll find that the forums are barren wastelands of non-discussion. Only the LaRocco forum weighs in with a double-digit thread count, and most forums are still under three threads. (The TTVJ forum on Head-Fi likewise has fewer threads than any open-discussion sub-forum but the Meet Impressions forum, and fewer posts than all but the Music FS/T forum.)

I would think that given the potential complexity of managing forums for who knows how many manufacturers, it would be better to create a melting-pot for commercial discussion and then branch-off sub-forums for manufacturers or topics that have traffic levels high enough to warrant it. If any manufacturer or topic ever gets that far, that is!

I do like Hirsch's suggestion, not in the least because the props from such an esteemed member make me feel all warm and fuzzy

If HeadCase is founded in the spirit of minimal moderation and maximal expression, it makes sense to give not only the hungry and oppressed but also the manufacturers and businessmen a place to talk.

[Dusty Chalk]

Yeah, but on the other hand, www.audiocircle.com has all sorts of participation from manufacturers.

[elnero]

I think if you were to do child forums it would be necessary for the manufacturer to request it themselves and maybe that they have a certain level of participation in forums before they're allowed a child forum. I got the impression iPod Studio just creates a forum for manufacturers if they become members.

[Dusty Chalk]

I don't think you should make child boards unless they're going to be made out of actual children.

:rimshot:

[Tyll Hertsens]

So, now I do have rules? What are they exactly?

I'd like to make a few comments:

One of the mechanisms I saw happen when we had our own forum on Head-Fi is that when people liked our stuff they would tell us in our forum, but when they we're mad they would talk about it in open forums. So there was a bias towards the negative in the open forums. Once we shut down our forum this slowly swung in the other direction and now I think comments about HeadRoom are more even handed overall.

You will notice that there are a number of HeadRoom fans---in fact fans of all stripes---that basically talk for manufacturers in the open forums. I will say without guile that I am glad for my relationship with TheSloth, for example, and his willingness to chime in for us is very helpfull. I have never asked him to comment, and I have no expectations of him other than to be truthful to himself. But looked at from the most cynical viewpoint he could be considered a shill. In the end, any long term manufacturer will have a set of fans that speak up for their favorite manufacturers. My point here is that want it or not, prohibit it or not, this place, and others, will be a mouthpiece for biased fans. And that's essentially what it's there for.

I think I can and do self regulate fairly well, and I try to toe the line when it comes to self promotion. But make no mistake, even when I am being self effacing I am promoting HeadRoom. I wouldn't do this if I didn't think it did HeadRoom some good. I'll add that I also see community health as good for HeadRoom so many times my focus is on the community growth with the assumtion that that would be good for HeadRoom too. What I'm driving at here is that if manufacturers are allowed to post at all in the forums, they will be acting promotionally. The question becomes, what's the harm in just letting them do so freely? It will prevent all the underhanded manipulations if there is simply no need to manipulate.

Let me answer the question above: what's the harm in just letting them do so freely? The answer is: the lost revinue from not charging them to promote. Which brings us back to: what the hell are your trying to do here. You want an alternative to Head-Fi? OK, but you had better start thinking about your business model and how you're going to pay for bandwidth. It may not be an issue now, but it will become one if you compete successfully with Head-Fi. If you replicate Head-Fi's success, won't you simply be replicating its problems. Already this thread is showing you that rules will occur; mods will have a job to do; fur will fly. Personally, I would recommend a closed forum for the hard-cores and find ways to work symbiotically with Head-Fi. Maybe make it so that you have to have 500 posts on Head-Fi befor you can become a member here. That way you could tie your growth to Head-Fi growth (now roughly the 7000th most visited site on the internet). Maybe even find ways to kiss and make up and promote this site tastefully on Head-Fi.

All this nasty feeling without a counterbalancing effort to fix the problems is simply distructive in the long run. You may claim that competition is good, but I will counter that deregulation in many industries has done more harm than good for the consumer. Going into head-to-head competition with Head-Fi is probably a bad idea; finding a differentiating position is better; being totally different and finding ways to to symbiotically relate is likely best.

Just to throw in a completly diffewrent twist how about: if you are a MOT (member of trade) you can post anywhere, but it will cost you $5 every time you post and you have to be labled in your avatar as MOT. That's every time, not just when doing a promotional post. That way members will know how sincere the MOT is by looking at what they're willing to pay for.

[TheSloth]

You will notice that there are a number of HeadRoom fans---in fact fans of all stripes---that basically talk for manufacturers in the open forums. I will say without guile that I am glad for my relationship with TheSloth, for example, and his willingness to chime in for us is very helpfull. I have never asked him to comment, and I have no expectations of him other than to be truthful to himself. But looked at from the most cynical viewpoint he could be considered a shill.

I think the difference is that, unlike the friendly Doctor who we all love so dearly, I have never stated that anything made by HeadRoom was superior to another manufacturer's product that I had never actually heard. I have never stated that HeadRoom products are better than the competition unless I'm in a position to make that judgement with my own ears, and tend to chime in only when I think that a HeadRoom product that is in line with the others being discussed has been unfairly overlooked. That to me is just restoring the balance...

I think that you make good points in your post, and that there is a role for Head-Case for the 'hard core' as you put it, but it needs clear goals to avoid all of the issues that are turning up on Head-Fi.

[Tyll Hertsens]

I have never stated that anything made by HeadRoom was superior to another manufacturer's product that I had never actually heard. I have never stated that HeadRoom products are better than the competition unless I'm in a position to make that judgement with my own ears, and tend to chime in only when I think that a HeadRoom product that is in line with the others being discussed has been unfairly overlooked. That to me is just restoring the balance...

All of which are why I like having you for a fan. I don't need people idolizing me, I want enthusiast fans who truely enjoy our product to have the opportunity to talk about the values the recieve with HeadRoom products. Saddly, however, many people are not as civilized as we might hope, and those folks will spoil the party for the rest of us.

I see a long hard slog. I see that slog continuing on Head-Fi. I think it may be a bit of a "grass is greener" fantasy to think human nature will be substantively different here than there. I think building a headphone enthusiast community is worth doing and putting a lot of work into. Why? Because that average consumer is getting ripped off, and the sacred art of music is worth better treatment than that. I think Head-Fi has NEVER found it's purpose. That purpose is to make broad expert opinion on headphones widely available in a clear manner. I've told Jude any number of times about ideas I've had that should work well with the tools at his disposal to make it easier to access excellent opinions and it hasn't happened yet. No fucking surprise, why should he really put his nose to the grindstone to work on improving Head-Fi when there's nothing in it but hard work, no money, and various pissed off factions of complaint.

I see this board as a symptom of the larger issue that Head-Fi isn't well governed....or well enough governed. I don't really blame it on Jude, as he was just doing something very nice by providing the board and bandwidth, and I don't blame it on the mods because there is only so much they can do. But if a Headphone Community board is to live on healthy and growing to the extent possible into the future someone is going to have to make a serious job of it, and Jude has (probably wisely, as one business to run is plenty) not taken on that task. I'll add that that task has significant risk and a lot of work related to it.

[Yikes]

Just to throw in a completly diffewrent twist how about: if you are a MOT (member of trade) you can post anywhere, but it will cost you $5 every time you post and you have to be labled in your avatar as MOT. That's every time, not just when doing a promotional post. That way members will know how sincere the MOT is by looking at what they're willing to pay for.

ExSqueeze Me? I?m a member of the trade, but I have never tried in anyway to promote my products here. I will talk about the fact that I own Exemplar pieces (that use Siltech) and that I have rewired some of my headphones with Siltech. When anyone has asked about my stuff in an open forum I actually discourage them from using it (specifically about my rewires).

I bend way over backwards to separate my job from my geeky headphone hobby. The only reason I let anyone know that I was a MOT is that I read the rules (some of the moderators should) over at Head-Fi and I endeavor to live within the rules.

Sorry I started on page two of this thread, and I wrote this reply after reading Tyll?s post. I?ll now go back to page 1 and read the thread.

[Yikes]

2) We don't want manufacturers promoting products through Head-Case discussion forums or photo galleries.

I don?t see why ?We don't want manufacturers promoting products through Head-Case discussion forums? As long as they are clearly delineated as MOT. Can?t we assume that our members are intelligent enough to differentiate between an independent post and a biased manufacturers post?

Tyll?s posts are always information-oriented posts. They explain some aspect of his products. I find nothing wrong with information posts. Now if he was posting how great model x223 is and that it beats everything else on the market for under $500 and it only sells for $199.99 shipping included, that would be shameless shilling and should be verboten.

[grawk]

Don't stress too much on what members write as board policy, Yikes

[Tyll Hertsens]

I have never tried in anyway to promote my products here.

Well, you're a bigger man than I.

Seriously though, I suppose I was more talking about headphone and amp makers. If this were a cable forum, I think you're participation would feel a little different. I can imagine that on a cable forum if you saw a discussion that was doling out a bunch of bad information you would want to correct it BOTH because you disliked ignorance and thought the community would be healthier if it got good information, and because you knew that an educated consumer would be more likely to understand the subtleties of a high performance product such as Siltech cables.

I may also be being a bit too hard on myself, I really am fascinated by the idea of virtual community building and as I really think about it, I'm not sure how much I'm thinking about HeadRoom as I lobby for the community growth. I think it's a terrifically interesting problem (how to build an on-line community) and I am frustrated sometimes that my manufacturer status prevents me from participating as much as I'd like.

[grawk]

Tyll, if you're interested in virtual communities beyond niche areas like this, I can point you at a REALLY interesting place...