World War 3 Thread

[blessingx]

Hmmm. Prigozhin Listed as Passenger on Plane That Crashed, Killing All Aboard

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/08/23/world/prigozhin-russia-ukraine-war-news 

[Hopstretch]

Very distressing. RIP to noted humanitarian Mr. Prigozhin.

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Hopstretch

[Knuckledragger]

In case any you were wondering what ol' Prig's domicile looked like:

 

[skullguise]

The pool slide is the best part.....

[blessingx]

Kim Jong-un and Putin Plan to Meet in Russia to Discuss Weapons

Russia seeks more weaponry for its war in Ukraine, and a North Korean delegation recently traveled to Russia by train to plan for Mr. Kim’s visit this month, officials say.

[Knuckledragger]

As I'm sure all of you know, on October 7th of this year, Hamas launched an attack on Israel, killing over 1200 people.  That makes it the deadliest day in history for Jewish people since the holocaust.  The situation has only degraded more in the following month.  Oct 7 has been Israel's 9/11.  Bibi Netanyahu, an unpopular, corrupt, right wing leader has used the tragedy to dodge criminal investigations against him and further his agenda and position in power.  [NB: As much as I loath the man, I'd be doing Dubya a dirty if I directly compared him to Bibi.  Shrub ain't even in the same order of magnitude of "corrupt."]  The Israeli response to Oct 7th has been immense by any standard.  Israel dropped more on bombs in Gaza in a week than the US dropped on Afghanistan during the most intense year of that war.  Afghanistan is over a quarter of million square miles.  Gaza is 139.  There have been a few batshit insane calls for Israel to nuke Gaza.  It's been an open secret for decades that Israel has nuclear weapons.  Even the most more bloodthirsty war hawk understand why Israel would not detonate a nuke right next to their own border.  With that said, Israel has effectively nuked Gaza.  The combined explosive force of the conventional bombs dropped by Israel (over 25,000 tons at this point) is the equivalent to a couple tactical nuclear weapons.  (Strategic nukes are an order of magnitude bigger and usually originate from missile silos or submarines.)

The western media coverage of the unending clusterfuck has been a nightmare of its own.  As a longtime user of reddit (my account is older than most of the site's user base at this point), I have been absolutely gobsmacked at the state of /r/worldnews.  It's essentially become /r/IDF_press_releases.  I generally stay out of the fray on reddit, both for my own mental health and because I know it does no good.  I made one post calling out an influx of obvious bot accounts in worldnews, and was rewarded with my comment being shadowbanned.  It's more than a bit scary to see such blatant astroturfing occurring online, especially as someone who clearly remembers the post-9/11, early Iraq War II era. 

Its is my understanding that the polar opposite of what's happening on most of reddit is taking place on Tik Tok.  I have not nor will I ever use that app.  I see plenty of complaining about Tik Tok and complaining about complaining about Tik Tok and ...fuck it, I'm closing the goddamn web page and looking at cat videos. 

With all of this said, it's almost invariably true that the best coverage of a controversial issue is done via comedy.  Everyone's favorite self-deprecating British expat dedicated half an hour to the Israel-Hamas war and did a better job than most of the corporate media combined:

 

[tyrion]

Comedians should stick to jokes not this. Don’t take casually numbers from Hamas, the group that started this in the first place. Palestinians spit on a girl who was raped and killed by Hamas. They were happy about the killings. They were not Hamas, they were Palestinians. Israel needs to do what they need to do to defend themselves against Hamas. Full stop. The US killed more civilians since WWII than Israel has in their war against Hamas. Hamas is responsible for each civilians death in Gaza. The civilians in Gaza are responsible for Hamas. They voted for them and have done nothing about them. Hamas has received billions of dollars and instead of making it a tourist paradise on the Mediterranean they used the money to build tunnels. Jews have been in that land for more than 3000 years. There was not a Palestinian people until, at the earliest, the early 1900’s. The Arab world hates the Palestinians and do not lift a hand to make their lives better. From the river to sea means annihilating Israel. It has been that way from 1948 on (actually long before). Never Fucking Again. 
 

 

[tyrion]

Wow, not a single like, not a single comment. Why am I not surprised. 

[jamesmking]

2 hours ago, tyrion said:

Wow, not a single like, not a single comment. Why am I not surprised. 

I'm sorry, but I am not sure what you are trying to imply. Just because no one comments does not mean that no one has an opinion (informed or otherwise) or that silence means that you are right or that everyone agrees with you or that there are not counter arguments to what you have written. The lack of comments could simply be that no one wants an argument with you (especially with your privileged role as a moderator), or start a flame war.

If the protagonists on both sides in Palestine where equally reserved perhaps there would be fragile peace or even better a pathway to some solutions to the problems. Each side can point to the past, to past atrocities from the other side, atrocities that fuel more retribution and atrocities and naturally lead to attack is the best form of defense arguments. Until there is forgiveness and a willingness to not look at the past the deaths on both sides will probably continue at infinitum.

International law says Israel illegally occupied the west bank (United Nations resolutions, including 446, 452, 465, 471 and 476 and United Nations Security Council Resolution 2334 of 2016 reaffirmed this yet again) and then illegally (advisory opinion by the primary judicial organ of the UN in 2004) built settlers homes on what amounted to the front line. If this had occurred elsewhere in a different context the international community would be sending an army to throw the occupiers out... Given this it is hardly surprising Hamas and the Palestinians also use the argument that the Israel is responsible for the deaths and that attack is the best form of defense.

And so the atrocities and deaths continue on both sides, each blaming the other and each attacking the other and calling it defense and the human suffering continues.

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by jamesmking

[tyrion]

All you have done is suggest there is some moral equivalence between the sides. There is nothing the Palestinians can point to that is the same as Israel in terms of the history. All your comment suggests that you are ignorant of the history, which is part of the problem. 
 

As far as the UN, they said that Zionism is Racism which has led to so much anti-Semitic rage over the years. The UN is and has always been anti-Jew. You are kidding yourself if you believe otherwise. You may want to listen to what I posted above from YouTube. 
 

I suppose you want a ceasefire?  There were many including on October 6, which was once again broken by Hamas, the government in Gaza. 
 

Israel has offered a 2 state solution since before 1948. In fact, in 1948, Israel agreed to give half, the better half of Israel to the Arabs and what did they do, attack Israel. Please get your head out of your ass, I’m sure there is a campus you can be in protesting in support of Palestinians. 

[jamesmking]

34 minutes ago, tyrion said:

All you have done is suggest there is some moral equivalence between the sides. There is nothing the Palestinians can point to that is the same as Israel in terms of the history. All your comment suggests that you are ignorant of the history, which is part of the problem. 
 

As far as the UN, they said that Zionism is Racism which has led to so much anti-Semitic rage over the years. The UN is and has always been anti-Jew. You are kidding yourself if you believe otherwise. You may want to listen to what I posted above from YouTube. 
 

I suppose you want a ceasefire?  There were many including on October 6, which was once again broken by Hamas, the government in Gaza. 
 

Israel has offered a 2 state solution since before 1948. In fact, in 1948, Israel agreed to give half, the better half of Israel to the Arabs and what did they do, attack Israel. Please get your head out of your ass, I’m sure there is a campus you can be in protesting in support of Palestinians. 

perhaps your last post is exactly why no one else replied. I would like to see a long term solution to the entire Palestine problem.

For your information I have never protested on the topic in question for either faction and have no desire to, its complicated mess and saying one side is exclusively right is impossible and unhelpful to a long term solution.

I could call you a bigot for implying the UN and therefore, probably by extension, the entire world plus all universities is anti-Semitic  but that would achieve nothing, but your words, do show your silo mentality which I am afraid to say is all I have experienced every time this topic has been discussed, my father has experienced similar as well and I am slowly coming to the conclusion this kind of experience might be widespread. 

I could be insulted by your words saying you expect me to protest in support of the palestinians or to remove my head from my arse, (If I could bend around that flexibly the climbing problem I got stuck on today would be a breeze). But I refuse to be insulted. I would say insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong, but I dont think all you say is wrong.

I am afraid to say that, in my opinion it is people exactly like you who make it so hard to feel any connection or sympathy for the Jews, but I try to keep an open mind, since, just because the proponents of an argument speak objectionably, it does not mean their argument is without merit. However, I have no desire to further engage with you on this topic or any other.

Edited November 19, 2023 by jamesmking

[RudeWolf]

I know enough about conflicts between Middle Eastern nations (tribes, really) that my take on Israel v Palestine would at best be amusing if not completely clueless. It would be like Westerners discussing Russian-Ukraine relations.

Edited November 19, 2023 by RudeWolf

[tyrion]

So you are an anti-Semite. You made that clear. You are simply ignorant of the facts, don’t want to learn them, just want to hate. I will leave you with the video of all the innocent Palestinians who were cheering on the dead body of a Jew. And you wondered why I expected more from HC but clearly should not have. James, I would love the opportunity to engage you in person. 

[naamanf]

I’m too busy filling my armory to comment. P

[tyrion]

Apparently my last post has been reported. I did not realize he is a child otherwise I would have been nicer. I do apologize for calling you out for what you are. 

[Knuckledragger]

Two things, actually a number of things:

I haven't replied in however many hours because something I ate tried to kill me.  Longtime listeners will know that I have chronic digestive issues on the best of days.  When I ear the wrong (combination of) things, the results can be catastrophic.  I spent much of today accomplishing such tasks as "staying in an upright position" and "keeping solid food down."  After that I decided to get my Sonnar on in the afternoon light.

The median age in the Gaza Strip is 18.  40% of its population is under 30.  The last and only time Hamas got elected was 2006, over 17 years ago.  The population of Gaza as it is now, did not vote for Hamas.  To suggest otherwise is akin to blaming Gen Z for Trump or Millennials for GW Bush.

I find accusations of bigotry are almost never productive to any discussion, especially as we now live in the age where such allegations are constantly being weaponized.  In the last few months I had a post on Facebook that had the word "assholes" in it mass reported by a bunch of buttmad cretins and I ended up in the tentacles of FB's AI moderation.  There are no humans who monitor content at FB anymore.  I now have a strike against my FB account with an unknown number remaining before it gets deactivated.  Normally, this would not be an issue, but half of MV life takes place on that accursed site and I need to be there.  Similarly, I pluralized the word "autistic" and got an official strike on fucking reddit for hate speech.  This is a site that still allows people to have the hard R N-word in their username.

With all of this said, anti-semitism is on the rise globally.  The richest man in the world gave his praise and approval to some fuckwit pushing the "great replacement" theory.  The idea is that Jews are somehow magically using dark skinned people to worsen the lives of good God fearing whites.  Also, and it pains me to say this, I have seen supposed leftists chanting "gas the Jews" and other horrible shit.  I'm sure some of them are bad actors posing as protestors, but there's no way they ALL are.  This behavior is inexcusable.  The rise of the toxic left is a worrisome trend.

A major and important distinction is that being anti-zionist, or even offering mild criticism of zionism is not the same thing as anti-semitism.  Similarly, calling Bibi a corrupt and evil clownstick is not even the same thing as being anti-zionist.  Bibi doesn't own zionism, zionism doesn't own Israel and more broadly the country of Israel doesn't own the global Jewish identity.  

Also, we live in the "No True Scotsman" age.  The moment the member of a group does something horrid, that person is magically no longer in that group according to its members.  An incel or alt-right loser goes on a mass shooting, and suddenly he's no longer one of them.  Similarly, a trans man shot up a bunch of school children this year.  There was a not insubstantial amount of denial as to his status as a trans person all over social media, extending as far as (once again) weaponized accusations of bigotry for merely acknowledging the fact that he was in fact trans.  This line of non-thinking has certainly been visible in the discussion of the Israel/Palestine conflict.  

I think comedy has an important role in the discussion of war.  The greatest comedian of the modern era had quite a routine on Gulf War I:

 

George Carlin had a thing or two to say as well:

I'm not saying that the above two men had a massive shaping of my worldview, but if the shoe fits....

Lastly, I cannot stress how important it is to ignore things like "likes" and other reactions.  They're a fucking curse.  I use scripts and browser plugins to block them on sites like FB.  HC is sufficiently small that TBH they don't have much impact, but they are still best ignored.  I say this as someone whose mental health is an a precious balance on the best of days.  Ignore that shit.

[tyrion]

1 hour ago, Knuckledragger said:

The median age in the Gaza Strip is 18.  40% of its population is under 30.  The last and only time Hamas got elected was 2006, over 17 years ago.  The population of Gaza as it is now, did not vote for Hamas.  To suggest otherwise is akin to blaming Gen Z for Trump or Millennials for GW Bush.

The point is that Hamas was voted in and no one has lifted a finger do anything about it, despite the poor treatment Palestinians received at the hands of Hamas. Stop with the innocent Palestinian bs. And that includes the children who are taught at an early age to hate Jews. That doesn't mean that they deserve to die, they do not anymore than Jewish children deserve to die, something that Palestinian cheer. Again, there is no moral equivalency here. How about protesting against Hamas instead of Israel. Oh wait, Hamas would likely throw those supposed millions that do not hate Jews off of buildings. Israel is no more perfect than this country, but they are good people who do not look to kill civilians because they can.

I find accusations of bigotry are almost never productive to any discussion, especially as we now live in the age where such allegations are constantly being weaponized.  In the last few months I had a post on Facebook that had the word "assholes" in it mass reported by a bunch of buttmad cretins and I ended up in the tentacles of FB's AI moderation.  There are no humans who monitor content at FB anymore.  I now have a strike against my FB account with an unknown number remaining before it gets deactivated.  Normally, this would not be an issue, but half of MV life takes place on that accursed site and I need to be there.  Similarly, I pluralized the word "autistic" and got an official strike on fucking reddit for hate speech.  This is a site that still allows people to have the hard R N-word in their username.

I'm sorry but there is no more room for appeasement of hate. Hate needs to get a punch in the face so yes, if I believe someone is an anti-semite, I will call it out everytime and I am proud of that fact. I supported BLM despite there anti-semetic organizers but they do not support me. I don't know you, whether you are white, black, etc. so I wonder whether you have ever been called a kike, jew bastard, but I have and the only way to shut them up was a punch in the face (sometime I got them back but I still did it because hate needs to be punched in the face).  I don't give a shit about reddit or how you have been treated there, its nonsense and irrelvant.

With all of this said, anti-semitism is on the rise globally.  The richest man in the world gave his praise and approval to some fuckwit pushing the "great replacement" theory.  The idea is that Jews are somehow magically using dark skinned people to worsen the lives of good God fearing whites.  Also, and it pains me to say this, I have seen supposed leftists chanting "gas the Jews" and other horrible shit.  I'm sure some of them are bad actors posing as protestors, but there's no way they ALL are.  This behavior is inexcusable.  The rise of the toxic left is a worrisome trend.

And what should Jews do about that? Why do you think that is? Should I stay silent, ignore it, hope it goes away? But thank you for your little bit of empathy.

A major and important distinction is that being anti-zionist, or even offering mild criticism of zionism is not the same thing as anti-semitism.  Similarly, calling Bibi a corrupt and evil clownstick is not even the same thing as being anti-zionist.  Bibi doesn't own zionism, zionism doesn't own Israel and more broadly the country of Israel doesn't own the global Jewish identity.  

Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism. The idea that anti-Zionism is not anti-sematism is just wrong. Zionism is the idea of a Jewish state, Jews returning to their ancestral homeland, now Israel. Being anti-zionist means Jews should not have a homeland despite 3000 years of history. A similar history the Palestinians do not have. So if you believe there should not be a Jewish homeland then you are anti-Semitic.  "Saying, I just hate Jews, I just hate Zionism, is saying I don't hate Jews as long as they are homeless and vulnerable." That is anti-Semitism.

1 hour ago, Knuckledragger said:

 

 

 

[n_maher]

9 hours ago, tyrion said:

Wow, not a single like, not a single comment. Why am I not surprised. 

I'm not sure why you are or are not surprised Mike.  I don't know enough to comment significantly, so I don't.  I can't like something as horrible and tragic as all of what is going on in Israel these days.  My sister in law is Jewish. Our kids' best friends are Jewish.  Does that matter?  Not to me.  They are great people, regardless of religion, that's what I know. 

As for what you expected from HC I don't know what to think about that comment either.  I think you know that ultimately this is one of the most compassionate and caring corners of the internet.  Did it spring into action to support your post? I guess not. But I'm not sure how it could have either.  What I do know is that this place has rallied unlike any other to support its friends, time and time again.  I think this is a good place, one largely free of hate.  But it remains imperfect, like everything else in life.

[tyrion]

Nate, I am one of those that in the past has rallied to support others on HC. I guess I had hoped that someone would have come to my defense and that of Jews in general. Instead I get a bunch of bs from people that have zero understanding of history and just repeat the same rhetoric that has for ever put Jews at risk. People spend all kinds of time liking the beer or cocktail someone is drinkng but almost know support for someone who has been a part of this community, although not as much as before, from the beginning. 

Seeing the people who have like the posts, other than mine, I think it is time for me to go. Please delete my account. I tried but could not figure out how to do so in the settlings.

[Voltron]

I didn't like or post anything in this discussion because I don't know what to say on this very loaded topic. I will say that I support you, Mike, I support Jewish people here or in Israel or anywhere in the world and despise the long and ongoing history of anti-Semitism, and I support Israel's right and unfortunate need to defend itself. I also hate war and I am saddened by the suffering of both combatants and innocent people on both sides of any war. 

I don't think it fair or accurate to equate lack of response by your many HC friends with lack of concern for you or Jews or anything else, and I hope you don't really feel that way. 

[naamanf]

The real problem is nobody in the entire region is washing down their bacon cheese burger with a nice cold beer. 

[swt61]

My feelings mirror Al's, but as someone who has never really understood the level of hatred and prejudice against Jewish people, and is old enough to know the reality of that hatred, I'm firmly behind the Jewish community. I do have sympathy for all innocent people trapped in war torn countries. But when people have been trying to wipe you off the face of the earth for as far back as history goes, then I find myself with special consideration for those people. I'm not old enough to have lived during the haulocaust. But I am old enough to have studied it extensively in school and up to the present. And anyone that doesn't believe that Isreal has the right to defend itself and it's people at all cost, well then they aren't being truthful about what really took place in WWII. Those atrocities can't ever be allowed to happen again, and yet there are so many that it seems would turn a blind eye to it once again. 

I am saddened that these cowards are using innocent people to shield their terrorists acts, but I have a very hard time condemning Isreal for defending against these acts. Live through what they have, and then talk to me about a more metered response!

[TMoney]

I'll just chime in to say this. About a decade back I visited Israel for two weeks with the rest of my family. One of the most memorable parts of the trip was visiting the West Bank. I'm an empathetic person, and seeing the way the modern state of Israel treated the Palestinians people made me sad, more than anything. A day or two after we saw the settlements encroaching on the West Bank.

That trip and the time we spent there seeing things with my own eyes changed my outlook. Many other people I've spoken to who have visited the Palestinian Territories feel the same way. Some of my other friends who have done the "birthright" trips never got a chance to see what we saw and had a very different experience of spending time in the region.

What happened was/is horrible, and the nation of Israel is well within its rights to respond harshly. That being said, it breaks my heart to see bomb after bomb hit Gaza City and trash the place. More than a million people live there, and look what is happening to it.

I think the situation is very complicated and that it is ok to feel conflicted. I myself am a non-practicing Jew.

[blessingx]

This is the third time I've tried to start a response and twice attempted to PM you directly Mike. I wasn't sure how to respond to your non-bullet, bullet list with a single emoji, and once you posted about no comments and your lack of surprise at HC silence, even less so. 

I don't pretend to understand the weight of all the historic injustices in play in the Levant or peoples from there (the Holocaust most obviously, but also Spanish & Portuguese Inquisitions, The Crusades, forced migrations, etc.). However not only one side here was affected by those, especially the last two, and I most certainly don't support protecting oneself at all costs. That applies to the US or any other state or people. Look at awful 9/11 AND the awful 9/11 response. When W. said "you're either with us or against us" I thought most understood that wasn't the best path forward.  

I have to admit, probably my being naive, I can't remember during my life even having sympathy for innocents on both sides got you labeled as not supportive enough on one side. That feels different, though I know further back it was quite common.

I hope we all feel similarly against terrorism, minimizing collateral damage, long-term peace goals, democratic governments, etc. If that's the case, it's probably why it goes less spoken. We already agree. 

But we all have additional lines too, and one of mine is cutting off food and water to an entire population. That's just waaay too far over the line on the at all costs yardstick and I can't believe people aren't starting every conversation with that fact. Not invalidating power structure or history or identity, etc. It's complicated history, but one side actively starving out the entire other side is the opposite of complicated. 

So for what it's worth I've given $2,500 so far to try to help slightly there. Hopefully humanitarian channels will further open. 

 

[skullguise]

As a Jew myself, I fully stand by Israel.  Mike makes a lot of true and salient points.  Even the "illegal" settling of the West Bank was done AFTER several surrounding countries attacked Israel, and they gained the land.  The Sinai peninsula is another example of that.  But Israel gave that land back to Egypt as a part of a peace settlement.

The Palestinians - in Gaza or the West Bank - have never agreed to any peace settlement with Israel.  So Israel has not given back the West Bank.  They HAVE left Gaza alone, and have been out of there basically since 2005 IIRC.  The non-Israeli's in the West bank have continued to send suicide bombers into Israel, so it's always a hotbed of violence.  

The bombing of Gaza is indeed massive.  I have mixed feelings about that because 1) until Hamas is removed there will just be more bombs/missiles/attacks on Israel, and 2) thousands of civilians are dead and tens or hundreds of thousands displaced.  I wish it wasn't happening, but I still lean to Israel's side because of #1 above, AND the fact that this wouldn't be happening if October 7th hadn't happened.  And any sign of weakness with Israel is a sign for others to do what Hamas has done.  I will ALSO recognize that Netanyahu uses this to exercise his power in war.

I cannot stand Netanyahu, indeed he is a right-wing power hungry asshat who would marginalize many in Israel, Arab and Jew alike.  I also condemn the settlers who force their way into the West Bank.  I would like to hope that some day it can be part of the Palestinian/Arab state and self-govern...peacefully.  Tens of thousands of Israeli's have protested Netanyahu's attempts at grabbing power and many of his policies.

But I will always support Israel, and condemn Hamas and any non-peaceful Palestinian.  Mike is right, Palestinians cheered when the dead bodies of some of the Israeli's were paraded around.  I also think they've been taught only with propaganda that everything wrong in their lives is because of Jews/Israel.  In many ways they don't know better.

I was having a passionate but relatively peaceful debate with someone, who was also focusing on the horrible conditions in Gaza.  I asked the same question as noted above: would this be happening if October 7th never happened?  And when he said that Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians, I agreed.  Then I asked: why don't they protest or revolt?  And the answer was that the people in power wouldn't let them or accept it (they have actually killed those who rally against them).  So of course, I then asked: who is oppressing the Palestinians more?  The answer is clearly Hamas.  They place weapons and fighters in or next to civilian locations (schools, hospitals, etc.) and don't let people evacuate (or at least until so many have died and they can use it as propaganda).  There are videos from their leaders saying they will have civilian casualties to achieve their goals.

I'm rambling....I'm not as firm as Mike to say you MUST support my thoughts or like my posts.  But I understand his passion, because as Jews we KNOW what it's like when people do nothing (ref: Hitler and Germany in WW2).

What I would ask is to do some research and help form a stronger opinion.  Research at how Palestinians have been kicked out of several Arab countries (because of the elements of violence) and are not welcome even as refugees.  Read what Hamas stands for (eradicating Jews in Israel, as well as globally).  Understand who is the MOST oppressive to the Palestinian people, what "genocide" REALLY means (guess what: Hamas is genocidal in intent, Israel is not), and then recognize that Jews have been marginalized and attacked globally and throughout history perhaps more than any other race/religion.

And also do research into how many Arab on Arab conflicts have resulted in dead Palestinians and other Arab populations, and try and understand why there is so little outcry for the Palestinian people in those situations.  Because it's not Israel doing it.....that's a sure sign of Antisemitism....

So I get where Mike is coming from, and feel much of the same fear and sometimes anger.  I don't expect anyone to like my post, but at least to read it and try to learn more, to help understand.

Edited November 20, 2023 by skullguise