Yeah, bitches! Respect my dollar!

[909]

if i came to Canada would i get free health care?

[recstar24]

Of course there's waiting lists, people who need surgery the most get first dibs. I don't see the problem here, they'll eventually get to you before things get too bad. Someone with a dislocated shoulder needs help a bit more than a guy like me who has a low-level nagging shoulder injury, he goes straight to the emergency room while I might have to wait a few weeks or months.

That is what I figured, but how is that process figured out? Who decides where someone is placed on a list? Is there a very detailed manual of some sort that the hospitals use endorsed by the Canadian government that lists which injuries and diseases take priority? What kind of standard operating procedure and enforcement of policy is in place to ensure that those who truly need treatment before others are treated 1st, and ultimately whose decision does that fall upon? I am not starting shit, I am genuinely curious and merely seeking info from local canadians on how that process works. In America, as long as you have the money and coverage your pretty much treated as soon as possible.

[grawk]

I suggest checking your facts first. Look up the date when the universal health care bill passed in California. Then look at the date on the articles I linked. As of the end of August, the bill still hadn't been signed, though it's probably gone through by now. The incidents I linked to took place way before that.

They may be tweaking their system, but california has had universal health care for at least 4 years. I had a good friend who benefitted from it.

[philodox]

All this talk of getting treated now.n and paying later... I'm assuming you are talking about emergency room visits? Like a gunshot wound or a heart attack?

What about cancer?

[grawk]

All this talk of getting treated now.n and paying later... I'm assuming you are talking about emergency room visits? Like a gunshot wound or a heart attack?

What about cancer?

First, let's define who we're talking about without health care:

The lower middle class, and entrepreneurs. The poor have insurance through medicaid. The vast majority have coverage through work. Self employed people sometimes choose to go without, and the people just above the poverty line are often stuck without insurance. But even for them it's a choice.

If you have no insurance, and you get cancer, you'll go bankrupt. But then you'll have coverage. It sucks for those people it happens to. I think our safety net could use some tweaking, it's not a perfect system. But america wasn't founded as a place for people to go to have all their needs taken care of. It was founded on the idea that we should be free to succeed or fail based on our own abilities. You can choose to spend your money on cable tv, or you can choose to spend it on major medical coverage. Because that's what major medical costs, about $50 a month (assuming no pre-existing conditions).

[NotoriousBIG_PJ]

well, what are you doing about it, Biggie? sounds like you're the selfish one.

Paying high taxes like a sucka, thats what. I must not be selfish afterall.

Biggie.

[justin]

Because that's what major medical costs, about $50 a month (assuming no pre-existing conditions).

I think it's a bit more than $50. I'm a 24 y/o male with no history of anything and it's about $120 a month for what's considered good coverage for someone self-employed. Hard to be lower risk than that

[en480c4]

I think it's a bit more than $50. I'm a 24 y/o male with no history of anything and it's about $120 a month for what's considered good coverage for someone self-employed. Hard to be lower risk than that

That's right around what I'm paying as well... $124, IIRC.

[grawk]

I think it's a bit more than $50. I'm a 24 y/o male with no history of anything and it's about $120 a month for what's considered good coverage for someone self-employed. Hard to be lower risk than that

Good coverage. I was talking about major medical, which covers only >$5000

[aerius]

They may be tweaking their system, but california has had universal health care for at least 4 years. I had a good friend who benefitted from it.

Maybe you'd like to explain how it's universal healthcare when according to this article, there were 6.5 million Californians without any healthcare coverage at the beginning of this year.

[grawk]

Maybe you'd like to explain how it's universal healthcare when according to this article, there were 6.5 million Californians without any healthcare coverage at the beginning of this year.

I dunno, but I know that my friend, who was not broke, was covered for full cancer treatment up until his death. Maybe the coverage for illegal immigrants and higher income people is the difference? Folks like non-union actors, and other people making decent wages but who don't have health insurance by choice?

[aerius]

The point is this, universal healthcare coverage means that all citizens are covered, hence, "universal". If there's 6.5 million people with no coverage, and only a million or so are illegals and therefore not citizens, that still leaves over 5 million citizens with no healthcare insurance. Therefore, it isn't a universal healthcare system.

[grawk]

The point is this, universal healthcare coverage means that all citizens are covered, hence, "universal". If there's 6.5 million people with no coverage, and only a million or so are illegals and therefore not citizens, that still leaves over 5 million citizens with no healthcare insurance. Therefore, it isn't a universal healthcare system.

Yup, mr literal, you're right. I think if people who can't afford insurance are covered, that's pretty universal. If people who are employed gainfully don't choose to get insurance, that's their own choice, and they get to live with that choice.

[philodox]

First, let's define who we're talking about without health care:

The lower middle class, and entrepreneurs. The poor have insurance through medicaid. The vast majority have coverage through work. Self employed people sometimes choose to go without, and the people just above the poverty line are often stuck without insurance. But even for them it's a choice.

If you have no insurance, and you get cancer, you'll go bankrupt. But then you'll have coverage. It sucks for those people it happens to. I think our safety net could use some tweaking, it's not a perfect system. But america wasn't founded as a place for people to go to have all their needs taken care of. It was founded on the idea that we should be free to succeed or fail based on our own abilities. You can choose to spend your money on cable tv, or you can choose to spend it on major medical coverage. Because that's what major medical costs, about $50 a month (assuming no pre-existing conditions).

Thanks for that explanation, it clears a few things up for me. I guess you guys have it a little better than I thought, but it sounds like it would be easy for someone to fall in the area where you don't have coverage and cant afford it. That is a shame.

Sort of like when I tried to get a student loan for college and was told that my Dad made too much money for OSAP even though there is no way he could spare me enough. Then I go to the bank and try to get him to cosign for a student load there... turns out they do their check differently and base it on the amount of money you have left after bills/etc. He didn't make enough to cosign for a loan. Brutal. Had to get my Mom in Alberta to cosign.

EDIT: That was sort of a random story... my excuse is lack of sleep. Went to see the advance screening of RE:Extinction last night and didn't get to sleep until 2 in the morning.

[aerius]

Yup, mr literal, you're right. I think if people who can't afford insurance are covered, that's pretty universal. If people who are employed gainfully don't choose to get insurance, that's their own choice, and they get to live with that choice.

Sure, if that's how you define it. Those who can't afford insurance get bottom of the line medicaid, and no chance of getting admitted to say, The Mayo Clinic or something like that for specialist treatment even if they need it. They get sent to the nearest hospital which'll accept them even if the quality of care isn't sufficient. Those who can't afford good insurance end up in the same boat, hell, you even have a list of approved hospitals for each insurance plan, and if one of those hospitals doesn't provide the service which is needed you are still shit out of luck and paying out of your own pocket, ie, going in debt for a long time.

Fact is the US system is designed for rich people, they have accesss to all the best clinics, they get to be first in line, and fuck everyone else who needs medical care. For rich people, the US has the best system in the world, for everyone else, it's pretty mediocre.

The US consistently ranks in the bottom 1/3 or 1/4 among developed countries in life expectancy, infant mortality, medical sick days, incidences of cancer, diabetes, heart disease & stroke, and so on. And yet the still claim to have the "best" system.

[hirsch]

That's right around what I'm paying as well... $124, IIRC.

It's not going to be that if you've got a history of illness, a chronic condition, or become high-risk in any manner. Unless you're covered under a group plan, insurance in the US is only inexpensive for those that don't use it. Think of what happens to your car insurance after an accident...

I know it wasn't intended this way, but that is a great selling point: "Come to the United States, where our hospitals are incredible, but you are likely to get shot dead."

The mortality rate in the US due to human error in the medical system is approximately 100,000 yearly. Yeah, you read that number right. Think of the outrage we would feel if an airliner crashed on a daily basis, which would approximate the same mortality. Yep, great system we've got. Doctors are too busy covering their asses to avoid liability to spend the time they need to actually practice medicine.

Need pain medication in the US? Good luck. Your doctor can go to jail for prescribing it, if he's got too many patients with chronic pain. I do know somebody who has to travel to another state to get to a doctor willing to prescribe adequate levels of pain medication (and that doctor is at great risk of arrest by the DEA). The irony is that he's a leading researcher in addiction, who knows more about drug addiction that any of the doctors he's seen, or the politicians who have been making the rules.

In the US, people are not going into medicine at the same rate as in the past. This is going to be a crisis as the baby boomers retire, and deplete the medical fields, while at the same time needing more medical care. Doctors do well, but they've got huge overhead. Another friend who is an ob/gyn founded a large practice that had grown to nine doctors. They had to join a corporate group to survive at all, because malpractice insurance for their practice had exceeded $1,000,00 yearly. There are areas in the US where you simply can't find an ob/gyn.

I don't know the fraction of the money that goes into healthcare that actually goes for medical practice, but it's pretty small. Your health care dollar in the US is paying the plan administrators, insurance companies, and of course the lawyers (I don't want to even think about the number of CYA procedures in the US that are done simply to avoid liability, not because the doctor actually believes the patient needs it).

I dunno, but I know that my friend, who was not broke, was covered for full cancer treatment up until his death. Maybe the coverage for illegal immigrants and higher income people is the difference? Folks like non-union actors, and other people making decent wages but who don't have health insurance by choice?

Look at insurance rates for a family with two kids, not for a single young person. Some of these people have a choice between health insurance and paying the mortgage, even with both parents working. Some choice. Maybe they should give up food. It isn't all about luxuries. The people who live in the US who think that their medical system actually works are living a fantasy. If you've got enough money, the fantasy will work. But the bottom line is that it's a seriously broken system. The people that are getting shafted are the ones that don't have the money to get to a competent doctor, or the intelligence to find one. Of course, these people are also not particularly political, since they're more focussed on survival, they are the least likely people in the US to vote, and they are screwed.

Fact is the US system is designed for rich people, they have accesss to all the best clinics, they get to be first in line, and fuck everyone else who needs medical care.

That pretty much sums it up. FYI, I was affiliated with a medical school in the US until I took another position.

[JBLoudG20]

bottom of the line medicaid, and no chance of getting admitted to say, The Mayo Clinic or something like that for specialist treatment even if they need it. They get sent to the nearest hospital which'll accept them even if the quality of care isn't sufficient.

That sounds very reminiscent of your system... only I might have to wait 6 weeks to get my sprained shoulder looked at. Neither of our system are up to snuff, so get off your high horse, or seal, or whatever the fuck you guys use up there.

[aerius]

That sounds very reminiscent of your system... only I might have to wait 6 weeks to get my sprained shoulder looked at. Neither of our system are up to snuff, so get off your high horse, or seal, or whatever the fuck you guys use up there.

Again, I point to the results. In terms of life expectancy, low infant mortality rates, workdays lost to illness & injury, access to care and so forth, Canada consistently ranks in the top 1/3 of developed countries while the US is stuck in the bottom 1/3.

[NotoriousBIG_PJ]

That sounds very reminiscent of your system... only I might have to wait 6 weeks to get my sprained shoulder looked at. Neither of our system are up to snuff, so get off your high horse, or seal, or whatever the fuck you guys use up there.

Lol, that doesn't sound like the Canadian system at all. And the moose is our ride of choice. Our bacon tastes so good because its made from mooses.

Biggie.

[aerius]

Another thing. We get a few US TV stations up here. Every once in a while they'll have a telethon or funding drive to raise money for some kid with cancer or some other disease who otherwise can't afford medical care. Here's some kid with a year to live, and they have to go on TV to try and raise money for him, or else he dies. What kind of sad system allows this? This is the shit I expect to see in 3rd world shithole countries, not a 1st world nation like the US.

[JBLoudG20]

Lol, that doesn't sound like the Canadian system at all. And the moose is our ride of choice. Our bacon tastes so good because its made from mooses.

Biggie.

Ah yes, the moose. I forgot about that.

Aerius,

You do not live in the U.S. You do not experience our healthcare system first hand. Same goes for us here. We will neither get a full representation of what the other system is like. The best we can do is shit on each other blindly, which is akin to me describing what your 340 sounds like, even though I've never heard it. You all know how much we hate that shit here. Is our system perfect? No, neither is yours. You can argue about the average life expectancy all you want, but without a proper control, the comparisons cannot draw conclusive results. Shit do you see how obesity is a fuckin epidemic here? That doesn't bode well to the statistics of our nation. There are many factors involved in your agrument that claims it null and void.

Back to the topic: The U.S. econmy is shit.

[bhd812]

Another thing. We get a few US TV stations up here. Every once in a while they'll have a telethon or funding drive to raise money for some kid with cancer or some other disease who otherwise can't afford medical care. Here's some kid with a year to live, and they have to go on TV to try and raise money for him, or else he dies. What kind of sad system allows this? This is the shit I expect to see in 3rd world shithole countries, not a 1st world nation like the US.

you believe everything on tv?

[grawk]

Another thing. We get a few US TV stations up here. Every once in a while they'll have a telethon or funding drive to raise money for some kid with cancer or some other disease who otherwise can't afford medical care. Here's some kid with a year to live, and they have to go on TV to try and raise money for him, or else he dies. What kind of sad system allows this? This is the shit I expect to see in 3rd world shithole countries, not a 1st world nation like the US.

What we have going on here is an asshat with strawman arguments. Get rid of one, he puts up another.

[aerius]

Aerius,

You do not live in the U.S. You do not experience our healthcare system first hand. Same goes for us here. We will neither get a full representation of what the other system is like.

And thank the invisible non-existent sky pixie that I don't live there.

The best we can do is shit on each other blindly, which is akin to me describing what your 340 sounds like, even though I've never heard it. You all know how much we hate that shit here. Is our system perfect? No, neither is yours.

And here we have a false analogy. How a headphone sounds like to a given person is influenced as much by individual preferences & hearing ability as it is by the actual technical merits of the headphone itself. The healthcare system is not nearly as subject to those factors as a headphone. You are literally comparing apples to oranges. I don't need to be in a Ford Pinto when it crashes to know that it's a fucking death trap. The NHTSA crash tests will tell me that it's death on wheels.

You can argue about the average life expectancy all you want, but without a proper control, the comparisons cannot draw conclusive results. Shit do you see how obesity is a fuckin epidemic here? That doesn't bode well to the statistics of our nation. There are many factors involved in your agrument that claims it null and void.

Ah yes, nothing is 100% conclusive. There have actually been studies carried out accounting for socialeconomic factors, pre-existing conditions and so forth in an attempt to reduce the variables. Other than the rich upper class, the US still lags behind many 1st world countries, and its quality of care for the poor is absolutely abysmal.

Back to the topic: The U.S. econmy is shit.

And it's only going to get worse until you kick that retarded chimp out of office.

[aerius]

What we have going on here is an asshat with strawman arguments. Get rid of one, he puts up another.

And you're a jingoistic retard who's yet to provide a single fact based argument on why the US healthcare system is superior beyond "we have freedom, and everything's been cheap and great for me".

Go back and read hirsch's post.