Yeah, bitches! Respect my dollar!

[philodox]

Unless the Canadian health care system has changed radically in the last 10 years it's nothing to write home about. My dad practiced in two Canadian provinces.

I've never had a problem with the hospitals here, and have had sick relatives who all received great treatment.

we don't have national medical coverage, philodox, but most people have medical coverage. the federal government doesn't have the purview to create a national health care system, without an amendment, anyway (assuming anyone even reads the constitution, anymore). if the individual states want to create state health coverage, fine by me.

Ok, but then you pay for it, so I fail to see how that is any different than paying taxes.

And probably you've never been to county hospitals here--some are decent and some suck--i am sure similar in Canada.

Fair enough. I think your other post was poorly worded in that case.

i've got really good health insurance.

Cool, costs money though right?

Man, this is a hot topic, though the discussion has veered a bit... every time I try to post there are 2-3 new posts to check.

[aerius]

Also, let's look at results here.

America tied with fucking Hungary & Poland in infant mortality

US has shorter life expectancy than Canada

Care to explain this?

[grawk]

I've never had a problem with the hospitals here, and have had sick relatives who all received great treatment.Ok, but then you pay for it, so I fail to see how that is any different than paying taxes.Fair enough. I think your other post was poorly worded in that case. ;)Cool, costs money though right?

Man, this is a hot topic, though the discussion has veered a bit... every time I try to post there are 2-3 new posts to check.

Reality is, the hospitals in both countries handle typical cases well. If they didn't, things would be seriously fucked up. The differences come when you need extreme care. In canada, you basically don't get it. In the US, you only get it if you can afford it.

The benefit to state based coverage instead of federal is that you have the option of living in a different state if the one you're in doesn't suit you.

As to the cost, I'd rather pay specific costs for specific benefits than give 60% of my salary for the government to spend as it sees fit.

[grawk]

Also, let's look at results here.

America tied with fucking Hungary & Poland in infant mortality

US has shorter life expectancy than Canada

Care to explain this?

Easy - immigration

[deepak]

Of course not. They shuttled to the nearest emergency ward when a treatable condition, such as an ulcer has degenerated to life-threatening levels. Patch'em up, kick'em out, and oh, here's a $100k bill you'll be paying for the rest of your life unless you declare bankruptcy.

Eh...every hospital I've been at has a clause that they have to treat patients regardless of their financial situation. aerius I've never heard of anything like that happening unless it's some backwards hospital where their entire system of care is basically broken. You really won't find that in 95% of the hospitals, I'm pretty sure about that.

The Sick Kid's Hospital is a world renowned peds hospital (and I've had friends that rotated there and said it was exceptional) but in the US you have hospitals like Mass General, Brigghams, Cleveland Clinic, Mayo (Rochester), Hopkins, UCSF, Baylor (hooray), Presbyterian, etc.

[grawk]

Eh...every hospital I've been at has a clause that they have to treat patients regardless of their financial situation. aerius I've never heard of anything like that happening unless it's some backwards hospital where their entire system of care is basically broken. You really won't find that in 95% of the hospitals, I'm pretty sure about that.

The Sick Kid's Hospital is a world renowned peds hospital (and I've had friends that rotated their and said it was exceptional) but in the US you have hospitals like Mass General, Brigghams, Cleveland Clinic, Mayo (Rochester), Hopkins, UCSF, Baylor (hooray), Presbetarian, etc.

Plus St Joes in memphis and md anderson in houston...

[aerius]

the cases you are talking about are quite rare, but they make good sound bites so they are heavily covered. the situations are rarely quite how they are portrayed by "news" services. health care in this country is pretty fucked up, but at least use informed examples.

No doubt, I did choose those cases for dramatic effect, but the fact remains that it can and does happen. I have a relative in the US who works for a major insurance company, and though most of the fuck-ups aren't nearly that bad they're still inexcusable.

[grawk]

No doubt, I did choose those cases for dramatic effect, but the fact remains that it can and does happen. I have a relative in the US who works for a major insurance company, and though most of the fuck-ups aren't nearly that bad they're still inexcusable.

I'd rather live in a world where shit happens, but we get more choices...

[deepak]

No doubt, I did choose those cases for dramatic effect, but the fact remains that it can and does happen. I have a relative in the US who works for a major insurance company, and though most of the fuck-ups aren't nearly that bad they're still inexcusable.

That could happen in Canada as well (minus the $100k bill part). Any hospital with a shortage of beds and/or ER physicians and it's a possibility, since the nurse on call is more than likely not going to want to page the non-ER attending on call if it's a late hour.

Shortage of beds was a huge problem in three of the hospitals my dad worked at. And one of them was a major academic hospital in Edmonton.

[philodox]

The differences come when you need extreme care. In Canada, you basically don't get it. In the US, you only get it if you can afford it.

Like what?

you really can't understand the difference between being taxed and choosing to pay for something?

I'd rather live in a world where shit happens, but we get more choices...

*sigh* Of course I understand the distinction. What I can't understand is how someone could possibly live without medical coverage. One visit to the hospital and you are in the poor house, no thanks. This is why I see no difference between the two... a tax, or a fee that you can choose to pay, but if you don't then you're fucked.

yes, because comparing relatively homogeneous societies to an highly ethnically diverse one makes so much fucking sense.

Sorry, Canada isn't ethnically diverse? [it is quite possible I am misunderstanding what you were saying there as there were quite a few big words. ]

That could happen in Canada as well (minus the $100k bill part). Any hospital with a shortage of beds and/or ER physicians and it's a possibility, since the nurse on call is more than likely not going to want to page the non-ER attending on call if it's a late hour.

Shortage of beds was a huge problem in three of the hospitals my dad worked at. And one of them was a major academic hospital in Edmonton.

Yep, it was a problem for a while there, and guess what? They used our tax dollars to fix it.

[aerius]

yes, because comparing relatively homogeneous societies to a highly ethnically diverse one with high economic differentiation makes so much fucking sense.

You need to get out more, Canada has just as much ethnic diversity as the US, though I do concede that we don't have the slums & ghettos which you have down there.

[deepak]

I won't even get started on the huge physician shortage that is still a problem in Canada, yet the Canadian government refuses to open up more medical school seats. AND refuses to significantly increase the number of Canadian residency positions available (the number of family physician residencies has increased in the last 3 or 4 years, but still pretty low).

Yep, it was a problem for a while there, and guess what? They used our tax dollars to fix it.

I guarantee you it's still not fixed.

[philodox]

I won't even get started on the huge physician shortage that is still a problem in Canada, yet the Canadian government refuses to open up more medical school seats. AND refuses to significantly increase the number of Canadian residency positions available (the number of family physician residencies has increased in the last 3 or 4 years, but still pretty low).

Looks like you're getting started to me.

[909]

I think your other post was poorly worded in that case. ;)Cool, costs money though right?

probably i could have worded it better, but i am a snob when it comes to anything health care related, insurance plans, doctors, and even hospitals and county even the good ones are something i wouldn't put up with or go to unless i had no other options. i like going to either UCLA or Cedars-Sinai so county even the best county is really down there.

my wife and i are very healthy and rarely go to the doctor, but for those yearly check-ups and what not. so the plan i selected is flexible to our needs and imo is very reasonable like $7 dollars a day for both of us, but in the event something serious happened we pay 20% of the insurance special price total, though, it caps at $3500 per individual on the plan then it kicks in 100%.

[aerius]

I won't even get started on the huge physician shortage that is still a problem in Canada, yet the Canadian government refuses to open up more medical school seats. AND refuses to significantly increase the number of Canadian residency positions available (the number of family physician residencies has increased in the last 3 or 4 years, but still pretty low).

There's no doubt our system has issues, that being one of them. But at least we're sorta taking steps towards sorting them out.

[deepak]

Looks like you're getting started to me.

When I get home I could go into way more detail. I have a PDF of Canadian vs US residency positions and I know about all the problems my Canadian friends had getting residencies in their own country. Canada is basically closed borders for any IMG (international medical grads) for anything other than family practice which is just silly. Or maybe it isn't? But if it's a pain in the ass for Canadian Med grads to get their residency of choice, that shows a huge flaw in the junior physician pyramid right there.

Considering world leading hospitals like Cleveland Clinic, the Harvard teaching hospitals, all Ivy League hospitals (except for 1) all accept IMG applicants. And have had residents at their hospitals take chief resident positions and go on to become excellent doctors in all fields of medicine and surgery.

[aerius]

The depressing part is when you look at the bigger picture, we've arguably hit peak oil and thanks to climate change, possibly caused by global warming, many parts of the US are already running short of water. Seeing that the US needs to import over 2/3 of its oil, it ain't gonna be pretty.

[philodox]

I guarantee you it's still not fixed.

From what I've seen and heard it is, but I'm not everywhere, so you very well could be right.

As for the residency positions stuff, I don't really know anything about that, so I'll take your word for it. Sounds like a stupid move though, I wonder what their rational is?

[deepak]

From what I've seen and heard it is, but I'm not everywhere, so you very well could be right.

As for the residency positions stuff, I don't really know anything about that, so I'll take your word for it. Sounds like a stupid move though, I wonder what their rational is?

The government has to pay $80000 CAD to a hospital for each residency position every year. They probably pay the resident $50-55k (my best guess) and keep the rest. That might have something to do with it.

In the US the government pays $100000 USD to a hospital for each residency position every year. The resident (depending on their year and they get a bonus if they're somewhere like NYC for extra living expenses) sees about $50-55k of that. And there are no shortages of residency positions here, clearly the US government and its tax dollars is doing something right here.

[postjack]

WORST FUCKING HEADCASE THREAD EVER

[deepak]

There's no doubt our system has issues, that being one of them. But at least we're sorta taking steps towards sorting them out.

Yup I agree. But the steps that are being taken are going at a snails pace. This has been a problem in Canada for as long as I can remember. And this isn't just recent knowledge since I'm in the residency phase, my dad has told me quite a bit about the health care system from his perspective and other Canadian physicians.

[909]

Also, let's look at results here.

America tied with fucking Hungary & Poland in infant mortality

US has shorter life expectancy than Canada

Care to explain this?

curious to know what they do in those other countries if they baby isn't developing properly? Abort? if so, does that go into the study? it doesn't even take into account the number of serious cases that are high risk? just because a hospital has a high mortality rate doesn't necessary mean it isn't a good hospital. it could just be the area or they deal mainly with serious cases.

with the shorter life expectancy--what about the US homicide rate, manslaughter rate, auto fatality rate, etc... are those figures even reflected in the study and compared against other countries to get a better picture?

[philodox]

The government has to pay $80000 CAD to a hospital for each residency position every year. They probably pay the resident $50-55k (my best guess) and keep the rest. That might have something to do with it.

In the US the government pays $100000 USD to a hospital for each residency position every year. The resident (depending on their year and they get a bonus if they're somewhere like NYC for extra living expenses) sees about $50-55k of that. And there are no shortages of residency positions here, clearly the US government and its tax dollars is doing something right here.

So, the hospitals get to keep more of the money in the US?

I guess I can see how a Doctor would prefer to work in the US given that it is easier to get work. From the perspective of the citizen though, I think our way is preferable... or at least to the middle/lower class.

WORST FUCKING HEADCASE THREAD EVER

Why?

[philodox]

with the shorter life expectancy--what about the US homicide rate, manslaughter rate, auto fatality rate, etc... are those figures even reflected in the study and compared against other countries to get a better picture?

I know it wasn't intended this way, but that is a great selling point: "Come to the United States, where our hospitals are incredible, but you are likely to get shot dead."

[philodox]

i do catch and release with my doctors. when i need a doctor i dangle mercedes keys on the sidewalk, i capture any interested doctor with a net, and then let him go at the country club once he has treated me.