AKG K1000s... what are they running for now?

[Icarium]

lol, what? You know you could build an amp for them that's close to $10000-15000 in parts alone...how much is that retail? $17000-30000?

Eh I don't see how you could do much better than an used Zanden amp which can be had for a lot cheaper. Or get a custom amp for comparable price (Or get an Airtight). I guess if you are maximizing the amp for speakers as well but then the money isn't going for the K1000. I mean I suppose if you throw that much into it, it might be doable though the Zanden is more than just good parts... Craig of Eddie Current was extremely impressed by the sound and wanted to open it up and look inside ;p

I mean look at it this way. If you put the K1000 in the same tier as O1/O2/HE90/L3000/R10/Qualias... consider all these headphones require equally expensive amps to fully max out the sound. Then by the sheer cost of the K1000 it's going to win in affordability. While you might argue that other top tier headphones have a softer amplification cost requirement to sound awesome... I'll suggest you tell that to people spending upwards of 20 grand on elaborate custom Singlepower amps (Apparently there's some guy ordering a 28 tube 0 or very few transistor variant of Neil's ES-2 for upwards of 40k and lots of other crazy ass amps that he was telling me about at the meet). Though the rigs were in separate rooms I can tell you honestly that my 5.2k SDS with an excellent tube complement + bass heavy r10 and sourced by EMM labs SE got smoked by foo_me's. The SS-1/Qualias/Emm labs came a lot closer (With P03/D03 it was almostttt equal basically better bass versus wider sound stage and slightly more perfect decay) but still got crushed.

Anyway, I'm obviously a believer in how good it sounds. It doesn't make me exactly happy since I have about 35k sunk into other gear that sounds different but undeniably inferior. But eh, I'm sure I'll have a similar rig by the end of next year ;p

Source first right now. Source first. Well and paying off my r10.

[PFKMan23]

Doesn't foo_me have a emm labs + zanden combo which also costs a pretty penny (even used)?

[tkam]

Yeah the emm labs and zanden is still a crap load of money, more money then I'd ever throw at headphones.

[deepak]

Eh I don't see how you could do much better than an used Zanden amp which can be had for a lot cheaper. Or get a custom amp for comparable price (Or get an Airtight). I guess if you are maximizing the amp for speakers as well but then the money isn't going for the K1000. I mean I suppose if you throw that much into it, it might be doable though the Zanden is more than just good parts... Craig of Eddie Current was extremely impressed by the sound and wanted to open it up and look inside ;p

I mean look at it this way. If you put the K1000 in the same tier as O1/O2/HE90/L3000/R10/Qualias... consider all these headphones require equally expensive amps to fully max out the sound. Then by the sheer cost of the K1000 it's going to win in affordability. While you might argue that other top tier headphones have a softer amplification cost requirement to sound awesome... I'll suggest you tell that to people spending upwards of 20 grand on elaborate custom Singlepower amps (Apparently there's some guy ordering a 28 tube 0 or very few transistor variant of Neil's ES-2 for upwards of 40k and lots of other crazy ass amps that he was telling me about at the meet). Though the rigs were in separate rooms I can tell you honestly that my 5.2k SDS with an excellent tube complement + bass heavy r10 and sourced by EMM labs SE got smoked by foo_me's. The SS-1/Qualias/Emm labs came a lot closer (With P03/D03 it was almostttt equal basically better bass versus wider sound stage and slightly more perfect decay) but still got crushed.

Anyway, I'm obviously a believer in how good it sounds. It doesn't make me exactly happy since I have about 35k sunk into other gear that sounds different but undeniably inferior. But eh, I'm sure I'll have a similar rig by the end of next year ;p

Source first right now. Source first. Well and paying off my r10.

I'm sure the Zanden is a nice amp. But I don't doubt there is a better amp out there.

Similarly I'm sure there is a design that sounds better than the Zanden for less, it uses 5687s for driver tubes right?

[PFKMan23]

Yeah the emm labs and zanden is still a crap load of money, more money then I'd ever throw at headphones.

Indeed, even used isn't it still like 14k combined?

[Dusty Chalk]

... consider all these headphones require equally expensive amps to fully max out the sound.

I think that right there is the flaw in your premise. The KGSS, for example, starts at US$1499. And that's pretty much the best sound I've heard out of the O2 (although I don't think the KGSS was stock).

The L3000 can sound pretty darn good with an Earmax Pro -- that's some of the best sound out of that one I've heard, although I suspect it will improve with the recabling.

[Icarium]

Well I took the source out of the equation since the source can be used with any rig and is not really specific to the K1000. Amp/headphone pairing is a bit more unique of a footprint.

What's 14k? The source is 10k and the Zanden was 6k. The amount you spend on a source is not dependent on which headphone you chose to go with. Hence why I didn't factor source into the cost. I heard the rig with his audio aero capitole which he had before the EMM labs... I actually liked it a little bit better with that and it was a much cheaper source. Slightly better decay but less body. So he spent about 8k for Oritek x-2 cables/Recabled K1000s + cage mod and amp.

The airtight 300B set amp is supposed to come pretty close and retail for a bit over 6k new. Nik was selling his for something like 3.5k or something. I would have probably bought that and been satisfied for a k1k rig ;p

Regardless of topology I think more went into the amp then just that. Craig was especially impressed/curious about the transformers used. For the amp I don't think it was just a matter of only the best parts were used, but within the strata of top notch parts different ones were tested against each other to find the most synergistic selection of those parts.

Obviously its a lot of money. I'm not disputing that. I'm talking about if you want to shoot for owning one of the best possible rigs out there without an area which you can still upgrade from and be basically done... the k1k route is probably the cheapest way to go about that. We are still talking about a complete rig that will cost 5 figures... just the lower end of 5 figures.

[deepak]

Well I took the source out of the equation since the source can be used with any rig and is not really specific to the K1000. Amp/headphone pairing is a bit more unique of a footprint.

What's 14k? The source is 10k and the Zanden was 6k. The amount you spend on a source is not dependent on which headphone you chose to go with. Hence why I didn't factor source into the cost. I heard the rig with his audio aero capitole which he had before the EMM labs... I actually liked it a little bit better with that and it was a much cheaper source. Slightly better decay but less body. So he spent about 8k for Oritek x-2 cables/Recabled K1000s + cage mod and amp.

The airtight 300B set amp is supposed to come pretty close and retail for a bit over 6k new. Nik was selling his for something like 3.5k or something. I would have probably bought that and been satisfied for a k1k rig ;p

Regardless of topology I think more went into the amp then just that. Craig was especially impressed/curious about the transformers used. For the amp I don't think it was just a matter of only the best parts were used, but within the strata of top notch parts different ones were tested against each other to find the most synergistic selection of those parts.

Obviously its a lot of money. I'm not disputing that. I'm talking about if you want to shoot for owning one of the best possible rigs out there without an area which you can still upgrade from and be basically done... the k1k route is probably the cheapest way to go about that. We are still talking about a complete rig that will cost 5 figures... just the lower end of 5 figures.

You could theoretically max out any dynamic rig for low 5 figures. It's just because the higher end SinglePower amps cost so much is that those dynamic rigs look so expensive. Single ended DHT tube amp for the R10, L3000, Qualia, etc might sound just as good as those SP amps if not better.

[Icarium]

I think that right there is the flaw in your premise. The KGSS, for example, starts at US$1499. And that's pretty much the best sound I've heard out of the O2 (although I don't think the KGSS was stock).

The L3000 can sound pretty darn good with an Earmax Pro -- that's some of the best sound out of that one I've heard, although I suspect it will improve with the recabling.

I've heard the O2 out of a KGSS DX. It's not even remotely comparable. Spritzer who even feels the O2 is the best headphone out there beating out the O1 and destroying the HE90 doesn't even think the KGSS DX is the optimal amp for the O2. Even though he has the superior Blue Hawaii he is building not 1.. not 2, but 4 custom amps with bizarre tube complements to drive the O2 to what he feels is its full potential.

Moreover yeah I've heard the O2 out of a KGSS DX and its can't even dream of touching the Zanden rig. I didn't even think it sounded that good. But to a person who digs that sound.. i bet he/she would find a first watt f1/pass aleph 30 / k1000 rig comparable in level.

As for the L3000/Earmax Pro? I'm sure it sounds good. But again I am reasonably sure my SDS/L3k (Combo which I used to own) sounded better and again, not even remotely at the same overall level though it did some things better like bass.

I'm sure the rigs you listed Dusty Chalk are 1. Great Values 2. 90-95 percent whatever.. really close to being the top of the line rigs. But I'm not talking about just a great rig... but one where you have a room of 20 of quiet audiophiles listening to it in silence for 30 minutes each none of them will have complaints or can offer up a component area that can be upgraded or improved upon. I.e. end game. Even if you want to throw more money at it you can't... type rigs.

[Icarium]

You could theoretically max out any dynamic rig for low 5 figures. It's just because the higher end SinglePower amps cost so much is that those dynamic rigs look so expensive. Single ended DHT tube amp for the R10, L3000, Qualia, etc might sound just as good as those SP amps if not better.

You might be right. But someone would have to actually have one of these amps and I'd have to hear it or have people that I trust hear it to really buy that. I don't doubt that its doable. But no one I know has one of those amps + the headphones we are talking about. I don't doubt there is a very very sizeable markup to Singlepower amps versus a DIY build or even the right trustworthy builder who is willing to take a custom job. But besides that Duality amp that Tjurikta has... I haven't heard a lot about anything that is really that maxed out. And I'm not even sure that duality is all that great. Philodox's amp is interesting as well, but again I'd have to hear more impressions versus high end (And possibility over priced but maybe not) Singlepowers.

Anyway, my argument is simple and not related to value so much as anything else. Basically Im saying if you consider to max a rig for any sort of headphone you have to spend about an equal amount on the amp regardless of headphone type. K1000 rig will be cheaper (Maybe slightly in relation to whatever else you are buying) because it is inherently much less expensive than the other same tier headphones.

[deepak]

You might be right. But someone would have to actually have one of these amps and I'd have to hear it or have people that I trust hear it to really buy that. I don't doubt that its doable. But no one I know has one of those amps + the headphones we are talking about. I don't doubt there is a very very sizeable markup to Singlepower amps versus a DIY build or even the right trustworthy builder who is willing to take a custom job. But besides that Duality amp that Tjurikta has... I haven't heard a lot about anything that is really that maxed out. And I'm not even sure that duality is all that great. Philodox's amp is interesting as well, but again I'd have to hear more impressions versus high end (And possibility over priced but maybe not) Singlepowers.

Anyway, my argument is simple and not related to value so much as anything else. Basically Im saying if you consider to max a rig for any sort of headphone you have to spend about an equal amount on the amp regardless of headphone type. K1000 rig will be cheaper (Maybe slightly in relation to whatever else you are buying) because it is inherently much less expensive than the other same tier headphones.

Wait how can you say you're not sure that Noise Duality is that great....hehe. The people praising it weren't exactly Hfi newbies. I remember Jason described it to me on the train, and his description was pretty nice (I trust his impressions over many others, that are just wowed by price tags, specs, etc)

[Dusty Chalk]

...if you want to shoot for owning one of the best possible rigs out there without an area which you can still upgrade from and be basically done... the k1k route is probably the cheapest way to go about that.

No, I think I'm going to still dispute that. I was leaving source out of the equation as well. You can get a MF A3.2 pre and power and the K1000 and be pretty much done. Or maybe an integrated. There's lots of options that so few people have tried with the K1000, because it can be driven by speaker amps. The Pass Labs amp is merely one that people have actually heard, but I don't think the K1000 has even remotely been tapped yet with all its synergistic possibilities.

EDIT: Saw your second response:

No, I wasn't talking about great values, I was talking about synergy. Just because you spend more money does not mean it's going to be better. I'm going to leave Orpheus out of this, because the Orpheus itself is a great headphone, but it's already expensive, and an amp/Orpheus combo will be more expensive than a K1000/amp combo.

I own a Singlepower Supra++/SDS-- (it does not have all the upgrades a SDS has), and to my ears, it's not -- as is, mind you -- as good as the combo I heard with the Earmax Pro (I forget which version -- if it was a modded one, or the anniversary one, or what). For the L3000. Now, I don't think it was as good as tkam's Dragon rig, but I didn't have the two next to each other to compare. But from memory, it was comparable.

And yes, the Pass Labs was a synergistic amp with the K1000's -- no doubt. Whether or not one could find something equally synergistic is up to debate. I'm just saying they're on the same order. So maybe you're right -- at US$1000-ish, the K1000 could be cheaper than the others, but you still have to put a decent preamp in there (the Pass Labs is a power amp, right? Not an integrated?). I just don't think it's clear-cut that one would be better. When you're getting into that level of sound, you'll never get a room of 20 audiophiles to agree about anything -- L, there's three of us that meet on a regular basis, and we don't agree about everything (just talking), because we have different things that interest us. Except I do think we agreed that the Pass Labs sounded pretty damn good with the K1000's.

And I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree about the KGSS -- I thought the KGSS and Blue Hawaii were the best I've ever heard the O2. I think they were maxed out with black gates and silver internal wiring, so yeah, we're getting into the multi-thousand dollar territory. But that compares it with K1000 + power amp + pre amp, so I think you're at least as cheap, if not cheaper.

[deepak]

Oh Dusty I'm positive you could do better than the Pass Labs amps. After a year of use with mine, I saw its short comings. But for the money (and heat ) it was a good amp.

[deepak]

Icarium hold up Zanden makes a pair of 300B monoblocks for ~ $35000, couldn't you assume that sounds better than a single M7000-300B

Isn't that really maxing out the K1000, in the true spirit of your meaning of maxed out

[PFKMan23]

The point of it is you don't have to spend more to get the best out of regular dynamics. Most people who can, in fact do spend more, but it can be done for just as much as a K1k amp/whatever. So I disagree. And yes, once I posted I knew that my numbers were low.

[Icarium]

Yeah it's pretty tough to say since personal preference obviously comes into play. Like again I thought the KGSS DX with O2 sounded incredibly okay-good. Just sounding good to me personally isn't really enough for me ;p As elitist and willing to throw money at things I am, I have actually never heard a headphone/amp that I actually hated. I can find something to like in everything. I think me and others in our community can be objective enough to listen to something that we personally like or don't like but recognize that a great deal of people might like it and what in the sound they might like (And if we consider those reasons valid measures of quality or not).

Like some components might have a lot of "Wow" factor and we can recognize that a lot of people will dig it because of that, but really its not transparent, its not any sort of neutral and really is kinda crap.

There's definitely the case where you can have a qualified builder really tune up one amp to meet your tastes exactly for relatively cheap but it could also sound like crap to everyone else (Not saying anyone here has tastes that skewed, but yeah).

So I guess even though I like everything to some degree, it isn't enough for me to just like it. Lots other people have to like it as well and agree that its awesome ;p Maybe not everybody, but people who's opinions I respect at the very least ;p Sign of a low self-esteem? Maybe ;p Anyway, as far as foo_me's rig goes, I really think anyone who listens to it will be damned impressed and feel that it's validly one of the best possible rigs and that its worth the money spent on it. The only person who I've heard think its only decent is maybe granodemostasa... I think. Of course he has yet to hear it in its mostly complete form and then if he still thinks its only meh ;p Well that's fine

As for Zanden Monoblocks ? ;p Maybe, maybe. As it is his rig makes music sound real. I know that gets used a lot but its really the only appropriate descriptor. So I guess its all a question of if more money (Whether that translates to better parts/better build quality or a better design) can make it sound more real. Definitely maybe ;p

[aerius]

Icarium hold up Zanden makes a pair of 300B monoblocks for ~ $35000, couldn't you assume that sounds better than a single M7000-300B

The only real difference is that the monoblocks have more power and a better output transformer. It ain't that special and it certainly ain't worth $35k.

The M7000's are seriously not that great, the Wavelength Audio Cardinal X2 crushes them like a bug. I was present at a shoot-out between the Zanden & Cardinal on a set of Coincident Total Victory II speakers. Much to the disgust of the Zanden's owner, the Cardinal beat it in every respect with the possible exception of tonality, and it does so at less than half the price.

For the cost of the Zanden, you could get the Wavelength Napoleon NCE which will give you MagneQuest transformers wound with fucking silver wire.

[Icarium]

The point of it is you don't have to spend more to get the best out of regular dynamics. Most people who can, in fact do spend more, but it can be done for just as much as a K1k amp/whatever. So I disagree. And yes, once I posted I knew that my numbers were low.

I dunno. Regular dynamics being basically non-k1k dynamics? Including top tier headphones? So you are saying after a certain point of spending there is no improvement whatsoever? Because if that's what you mean... I mean sure you possibly could be right it could be some sort of rationalizing on the part of my brain to justify the money spent (Also on the part of everyone else spending that much).

But if otherwise you are saying that there may be some minute amount of improvement that is almost unmeasureable that its simply just not worth it. That's different. Because while being a far better value the cheaper solution is not the actual best.

Of course no real best best exists. Just consider that extra wasted money as payment for as much peace of mind is possible.

I mean what are really high quality amps that are still a good value? Zana Deux? Dynafet/Beta22/Gilmore stat designs? I like all of these amps and think they are really great. But do I think if I spent 5x as much with Singlepower I will get something that is at least 5 percent better? I think so and I believe I've hard so, but yeah I could be wrong. I'd like to see some decently run multiple person comparisons disproving me though

[deepak]

The only real difference is that the monoblocks have more power and a better output transformer. It ain't that special and it certainly ain't worth $35k.

The M7000's are seriously not that great, the Wavelength Audio Cardinal X2 crushes them like a bug. I was present at a shoot-out between the Zanden & Cardinal on a set of Coincident Total Victory II speakers. Much to the disgust of the Zanden's owner, the Cardinal beat it in every respect with the possible exception of tonality, and it does so at less than half the price.

For the cost of the Zanden, you could get the Wavelength Napoleon NCE which will give you MagneQuest transformers wound with fucking silver wire.

Yeah I think you posted that in another thread. I know you like the Wavelength Napolean, pretty pricey though hehe.

Yeah it's pretty tough to say since personal preference obviously comes into play. Like again I thought the KGSS DX with O2 sounded incredibly okay-good. Just sounding good to me personally isn't really enough for me ;p As elitist and willing to throw money at things I am, I have actually never heard a headphone/amp that I actually hated. I can find something to like in everything. I think me and others in our community can be objective enough to listen to something that we personally like or don't like but recognize that a great deal of people might like it and what in the sound they might like (And if we consider those reasons valid measures of quality or not).

Like some components might have a lot of "Wow" factor and we can recognize that a lot of people will dig it because of that, but really its not transparent, its not any sort of neutral and really is kinda crap.

There's definitely the case where you can have a qualified builder really tune up one amp to meet your tastes exactly for relatively cheap but it could also sound like crap to everyone else (Not saying anyone here has tastes that skewed, but yeah).

So I guess even though I like everything to some degree, it isn't enough for me to just like it. Lots other people have to like it as well and agree that its awesome ;p Maybe not everybody, but people who's opinions I respect at the very least ;p Sign of a low self-esteem? Maybe ;p Anyway, as far as foo_me's rig goes, I really think anyone who listens to it will be damned impressed and feel that it's validly one of the best possible rigs and that its worth the money spent on it. The only person who I've heard think its only decent is maybe granodemostasa... I think. Of course he has yet to hear it in its mostly complete form and then if he still thinks its only meh ;p Well that's fine

As for Zanden Monoblocks ? ;p Maybe, maybe. As it is his rig makes music sound real. I know that gets used a lot but its really the only appropriate descriptor. So I guess its all a question of if more money (Whether that translates to better parts/better build quality or a better design) can make it sound more real. Definitely maybe ;p

The other question is what sort of music did you think sounded real on it? I doubt someone that loves Isis or some other post-metal is going to dig the K1000s (no matter what setup they're in).

[Icarium]

The only real difference is that the monoblocks have more power and a better output transformer. It ain't that special and it certainly ain't worth $35k.

The M7000's are seriously not that great, the Wavelength Audio Cardinal X2 crushes them like a bug. I was present at a shoot-out between the Zanden & Cardinal on a set of Coincident Total Victory II speakers. Much to the disgust of the Zanden's owner, the Cardinal beat it in every respect with the possible exception of tonality, and it does so at less than half the price.

For the cost of the Zanden, you could get the Wavelength Napoleon NCE which will give you MagneQuest transformers wound with fucking silver wire.

Yeah I have a wavelength dac. The cosine. It sounds seriously good.

So that other speaker power amps can crush the Zanden... I'm not super surprised. But at the 6-7.5k street value used price its not a totally shitty value. Esp. given the margin it destroys the Moth 300B which slightly edges out the woo5 and they both have somewhat of a margin on the F1/Aleph 30.

I guess maybe I shouldn't just say Zanden. Any 300B or on par with tube amp from a highly respected by various trustworthy communities audio builder in the 10-30k MSRP range.

Also as someone brought up the word synergy... it's also possible the Zanden in particular has amazing synergy with the K1K. Which from what I've heard it does... it isn't just an expensive amp. It has more synergy than the Aleph 30 ;p Though given what foo_me said regarding his audition with the Airtight. The synergy may not be exclusive to the Zanden name but more to 300B set designs in general. I buy into that.

[Icarium]

Yeah I think you posted that in another thread. I know you like the Wavelength Napolean, pretty pricey though hehe.

The other question is what sort of music did you think sounded real on it? I doubt someone that loves Isis or some other post-metal is going to dig the K1000s (no matter what setup they're in).

You'd be surprised. People threw all sorts of music at it at the most recent NorCal meet. I heard rock/jazz/classical/female vocalists of various genres. I didn't hear metal, but I think someone tried it (There are a lot of metal digging head-fiers). If not we can run it through it next mini meet. Maybe even have Granodemostasa a foo_me rig dissenter on hand to gauge how well it does metal (Though I guess he might not like the genre, Iron_dreamer perhaps I know he likes metal ;p).

[deepak]

aerius which Cardinals did you hear? The Anniversary wired with the silver transformers or the regular blocks which are $7500 for a pair?

[aerius]

There's 3 things keeping from getting a K1000; price, not enough bass, and the fact that if I dozed off and rolled my head over while listening to them in bed I'm likely going to end up busting them. Price isn't that big of an issue, but the other 2 are. If it had more bass, I could see having one as a 2nd or 3rd headphone.

[Dusty Chalk]

The only real difference is that the monoblocks have more power and a better output transformer.

And...they're monoblocks. Monoblocks == less crosstalk == better separation == better soundstage.

[Iron_Dreamer]

You'd be surprised. People threw all sorts of music at it at the most recent NorCal meet. I heard rock/jazz/classical/female vocalists of various genres. I didn't hear metal, but I think someone tried it (There are a lot of metal digging head-fiers). If not we can run it through it next mini meet. Maybe even have Granodemostasa a foo_me rig dissenter on hand to gauge how well it does metal (Though I guess he might not like the genre, Iron_dreamer perhaps I know he likes metal ;p).

I don't even bother playing metal or electronica on K1000's. I learned that neither works quite a while ago (the former has always sounded too harsh, the latter just doesn't sound right without the bass extension). Considering that the main virtue of the K1000 is soundstage size, it's a coin best spent on orchestral and jazz. I could frankly care less how good metal sounds on a K1000 rig, because if I had a K1000 rig, I'd never use it for metal anyway, as I'd have something with better bass/PRaT (L3000 currently).