Which R10 should be recabled with a balanced cable?

[Elephas]

It's very difficult for me to imagine the R10 with bass quantity even close to the L3000, especially the less-bass R10. On my system, driven by the AT-HA5000, Raptor or Lehmann BCL, I would describe the less-bass R10's bass as "dainty." Sure, it has great soundstaging, air, imaging and that superb midrange, but there's very little bass impact.

Does this mean purk and Mr. Ulveling have been listening to and enjoying a completely different sound than I've ever heard? I've been listening to a crappy-sounding R10?

Icarium, I think your posts are great, very informative. Your long "blabbermouth" post (I mean this in the best sense possible, really) on the NorCal Meet thread was superb and made me feel as if I was standing next to you and Mikhail. Please double or triple your rate of posting.

[tkam]

I always heard the maestro be be rather un-transparent, (at least at the national). I liked the extreme better for that purpose.

I think this is actually a pretty good point and I share a similar opinion. Personally I think the Extreme makes pretty much all the 6sn7/5687 output SP amps completely obsolete. Those using 6bl7/6bx7's are much better off but even those still quite aren't up on the level as the Extreme and other amps using the 6as7/6080/6528/etc.

[tkam]

I agree with Dusty and Elephas the R10's just aren't bass monsters and IMO aren't particularly good at all with rock music. They may be very good with Vocals and Jazz but I really don't like headphones that are genre-specific hence why I no longer own the RS-1.

[mulveling]

I didn't say they'd have as much bass impact than the L3000

Just that they took a significant leap forward, convincing me they can reproduce adequate impact for the heavier rock & metal. Albeit, this is the only amp I've heard this from. I really didn't like the R10 with heavy music on my SDS w/ slam adaptors, which is no slouch of an amp - so it's not easy to coax out of them.

I'm not quite yet saying I'd jump from my SDS + L3000 to purk's amp + R10 for rock...but it's not the vastly huge gap it used to be, it seemed much closer, and it warrants some extra consideration and futher listening

Also keep in mind, these impressions were my first (or maybe second) time critically listening to CD/SACD in months. I'm used to vinyl and it's hard to go back for even a visit

[mulveling]

Also, the trademark R10 soundstage, refinement, and detail are still all there in spades on this amp, lording it over my poor 'lil L3000

To recap, the R10 totally suck for rock on like 99.9% of the amps out there...purk's amp is like that 0.01%.

[humanflyz]

Also, the trademark R10 soundstage, refinement, and detail are still all there in spades on this amp, lording it over my poor 'lil L3000

To recap, the R10 totally suck for rock on like 99.9% of the amps out there...purk's amp is like that 0.01%.

I can believe this, since if you have enough money, time, and patience, you can manage to coax a lot of things out of a headphone that someone who is not dedicated to it will never be able to.

[purk]

Also, the trademark R10 soundstage, refinement, and detail are still all there in spades on this amp, lording it over my poor 'lil L3000

To recap, the R10 totally suck for rock on like 99.9% of the amps out there...purk's amp is like that 0.01%.

It isn't just my amp alone, but my system as one. I don't think my R10 will sound this good without my source and that new modwright tube rectifier PS. The PS by itself is aroudn 20lbs and has its own chassis.

Regarding the R10, I'm not saying that my lighter bass pair has the bass quantity of my L3000, but my bassier pair does come very close. In fact, I don't feel the need to listen to my L3000 that much any more given that both the HE-90 and R10 are more refined and superior sounding to the L3000. Of course, if I demand PRaT I and pure bass impact, I can always use my L3000 but let's face it I will loose out in air, layered of details, and midrange. If you bring out the bass on the R10s, they are nothing short of an amazing pair of headphone. Beside a slightly more refined and more neutral HE90, I've yet to hear of a better headphone.

A little history of my R10 adventure here. When I first got my R10 about a year back, I always like the sonic signature of the headphone but always felt somewhat dissatisfied with weak bass response. I went from Sylvania VT231s+Tungsol RP or Kenrad to Tungsol D-getters + Tungsol RP on my SDS and was stilll left wondering for more bass extension and impact. I later contacted Mikhail for some upgrades after I heard the SDS-XLR w/ Raytheon 6414 tube. The upgarde package included blackgates in both audio and PS section of the amp, high voltage settings to allow 6BL7 tubes to work on my amp, adjustable bias to adjust the tonality of the amps, and more output capacitor to allow more bass impact. I also requested Mikhail to tune my amp to bring out the bass on my R10s. I think he also did some internal tweaking to make the amp more trasparent. This upgrade is totally worth it as it allows me to use the 6BL7 tubes on my amp. The upgrade was a good upgrade from my SDS Slam when I use the Raytheon 6414 w/ the 6BL7gts tubes but a good bit better with the Tungsol 2c51....and even more magical with the GE12AY7 as a gain tube. At that point my R10 was sounding pretty good with pretty nice bass extension and impact, but my whole system improve even more now after I upgrade to a new tube recitifed PS on my modwright/R. Kern SCD-777ES.

[Icarium]

Yeah that 6080 tube is sick as hell. Still I am doubtful that my amp has truly been obsoleted! Syclone who has bought foo_me's he90/es-1 system says that my amp destroys an upgraded extreme platinum, but

he also wasn't using the sickness that is a Bendix 6080. Perhaps one day I can stack my amp versus your amp tkam and I can see if I need to upgrade or not ;p

[PFKMan23]

Although I don't have the Dragon, I do have an amp that is tuned for the bl7s and other for the 6as7/6080 and I wouldn't necessarily call the 6bl7 extinct just quite yet.

[purk]

Not really.... My amp also best the Extreme Platinum as well. The extremely has a wider soundstage that's it.

[Icarium]

Yeah the 6BL7 GT is amazing. But I recognize that the Bendix 6080 is probably superior.. though whether to the point where it justifies its price tag over my Sylvania 6BL7 GTs (Which I like better than my actually made by Hytron 6BL7 GTAs which Mikhail actually said is the only pair he's ever seen)... different story. Of course the Bendix 6080 probably will outlive me while my Sylvanias will probably need replacement every 3-5 years or so. So 6080s may be the better value in the end!

[Dusty Chalk]

I am not completely ruling it out like you seem to have

Heynow. I am skeptical to the point of ruling it out until proven otherwise, but if I ever do hear what I would even call adequate bass ("lean" does not count, I've heard lean) out of the R10's, I will...um...admit it. I'm not one of those guys who can't be proven wrong -- I hate being wrong, so if it is pointed out that I am wrong, I will be the first to jump, so that the window of being wrong is as short as possible.

I didn't say they'd have as much bass impact than the L3000

Well, it is true. Over IM, Purk threatened to infect my computer with a virus until I admitted that the R10 on his special amp has like way more killer bass than the L3000 on any amp I will ever own

"Killer bass" -- that includes impact.

[purk]

Heynow. I am skeptical to the point of ruling it out until proven otherwise, but if I ever do hear what I would even call adequate bass ("lean" does not count, I've heard lean) out of the R10's, I will...um...admit it. I'm not one of those guys who can't be proven wrong -- I hate being wrong, so if it is pointed out that I am wrong, I will be the first to jump, so that the window of being wrong is as short as possible."Killer bass" -- that includes impact.

Yes...my bassier R10 has very nice visceral impact. Not quite the L3000 but definitely a good bit more than my W2002. If you ever come down here, just give me a call. Also, you can call Mikhail up if you don't believe me. BTW, Boomana's system (Exemplar Denon 2900 and Extreme Platinum + R10s) also have pretty nice bass impact. Trust me, I like bass...otherwise, I won't go through all those trouble to fine tuning the R10s.

[Dusty Chalk]

Where is "here"? I'm going to San Francisco in early October. You're in California somewhere, right?

Trust me, I like bass...otherwise, I won't go through all those trouble to fine tuning the R10s.

No, I don't. Why would someone who likes bass have bought R10's without having heard what they were capable of, which, presumably, you hadn't, until you coaxed this theoretical "bass" out of them?

[purk]

In atlanta, GA. Mike is 30 mins away and Tom Hankins is 5 mins away from my place.

[Dusty Chalk]

Oh. Well, I was cloh...oh, who am I kidding, I was way off.

[mulveling]

Well, it is true. Over IM, Purk threatened to infect my computer with a virus until I admitted that the R10 on his special amp has like way more killer bass than the L3000 on any amp I will ever own Grin

"Killer bass" -- that includes impact.

That first sentence of my post wasn't serious; it was a friendly jab at Purk. Sorry I didn't make that more clear, but that's why I started off the very next sentence with "Seriously," Please disregard that first sentence, and regard all the rest of my post however you like. It is true however, that Purk's PC is pretty messed up right now, and has attempted to spread a virus/worm via IM numerous times...

[purk]

No, I don't. Why would someone who likes bass have bought R10's without having heard what they were capable of, which, presumably, you hadn't, until you coaxed this theoretical "bass" out of them?

So still not believing this huh? Seriously, Mike even think the bass on my R10 has more impact than my HEV90+HE90. What you need is to listen to a bassier pair of R10s not the lighter bass version. I have both versions, but Hirsch only have the light bass version I believe. I think Hirsch prefer the general sound signature of the light bass pair over the heavier bass pair, that's why he sold them. If you want to really come down here let me know. Here are the setup I have:

1) HEV90+HE90

2) SDS-SE+R10 (both versions)

3) DHA3000 + L3000

4) HA2002 + W2002

Phones: W2002 w/ L3000 drivers, HD-650, HD-600, HD-580 (Zu cable), Stax Lambda Pro, and CD1700.

[purk]

Where is "here"? I'm going to San Francisco in early October. You're in California somewhere, right?No, I don't. Why would someone who likes bass have bought R10's without having heard what they were capable of, which, presumably, you hadn't, until you coaxed this theoretical "bass" out of them?

B/c I heard what the R10 out of the SDS-XLR sounded like when Mikhail came down to Atlanta a year ago. The source was pretty nice but not that great (Consonance Droplet). Also, I have confidence in Mikhail and I know that my source is a lot nicer than the Consonace Droplet.

[Dusty Chalk]

Yes, I remain skeptical. Hirsch did have the other pair at one point, which I'm sure he would have let me hear, as I've had this same argument with him. On their best days, they were still "lean" in the bass, and I don't remember them ever having the impact of my L3000's (yes, I now understand that comment was made in jest, but my confusion should have been clear since my "bs" post was responding directly to that, and you responded to my bs post).

I do. I do want to hear R10's with bass. That would be awesome. However at this point, it sounds fantastical. I'm quite happy with my L3000's (other than the minor midrange swale, which I understand can be fixed with a recable). I'm sure it's probably the best R10's can muster, but I remain skeptical that it is adequate to my admittedly spoiled ears.

However, the visit won't be happening any time soon. Thanks for the invite all the same, I may take you up on it at some point in the future.

[hirsch]

Yes, I remain skeptical. Hirsch did have the other pair at one point, which I'm sure he would have let me hear, as I've had this same argument with him. On their best days, they were still "lean" in the bass, and I don't remember them ever having the impact of my L3000's (yes, I now understand that comment was made in jest, but my confusion should have been clear since my "bs" post was responding directly to that, and you responded to my bs post).

My amps are still tuning for the 6SN7, which means that the B+ voltage is around 300v. I can (and am) using the 6BL7GTA in those amps, wihich is possible by playing with the bias resistors. However, to get maximum power out of the BL7, I'm eventually going to have to increase the B+ to the output tubes to about 400v. The good news is that it's not hard to do, as long as I don't mind unregulated power to the outputs (which I don't). However, I need to get the right caps to preserve the sound I've got, and am going to likely need another big Solen and a bypass cap at the minimum. I'm also going to have to find a spot in the amp to put it. All of the R10's you've heard at my place were powered by underdriven 6BL7's, and have not shown what that tube can deliver by way of power. And that's the key to driving an R10. Unlike many headphones, it likes amperage rather than voltage. The bad news is that I'm lazy, and don't particularly feel like messing around with a sound that I like, even I haven't maxed out the low end yet. Tweaking the low end is not an urgent priority for me (remember, I still like the Celestion SL600), and I'm not willing to compromise any other area of performance unless I'm dissatisfied with the bass (I don't really care if anyone else likes it or not, since I'd be the one paying for the upgrades).

[purk]

Hirsch,

Thanks for chiming in. You won't loose any finese associated w/ the 6SN7 tubes if you drive the R10 w/ Slyvania 6BL7GTs and GE 12AY7. What you gain is bass, soundstaging, air, and slam.

[Dusty Chalk]

Re: Hirsch's post -- yeah, most of that was what I suspected, and not really news. Which is why I said if it was just tubes, we could try them, but if it was more (such as the voltages), then...I'm not holding my breath. It is his system, after all.

[Icarium]

He didn't mention if the R10 you heard was bass light or not though bah ;p

[tom_hankins]

Was at Purks last night and had the pleasure of an extended comparison between the two pr. of different R10s/SDS and the HEV90/HE90. Also have heard the L3000 with matching amp, and have heard it used with the SDS on several occasions. The bass on the one pr. of R10s is extremely strong. Not as much punch as the L3000, but very close. Over all better to my ears. Lots of detail and depth in the bass that the L3000 cant do.

The Orpheus was IMO opinion the best phone I have heard. A little dark in comparison to the R10s. Not quite the detail in both treble and midrange to the older R10, but nicer with both (mids and highs) of these than the new R10. The new R10 were the least refined of the three phones. I cant wait until Purks ES-1 gets here to compare the two amps with the HE90s.

As far as the R10 using Hirschs SDS-XLR. I would think the soundstage would be better than the SDS Purk has, but doubt it will equal the bass unless Hirsch has done serious mods to the voltage output. I sold the amp to Hirsch and dont remember it ever having the punch Purks amp has.

All the statements about these phones were in comparison to each other. I dont find the HE90 too dark or the newer R10 unrefined. Just in comparison to each other. I have not heard any phones as nice as any of these three.

The treble, soundstage, and midrange of the older R10 is beautiful. The same things on the newer R10 are almost as good. But the bass kills the older R10.

Purk is in a very nice place to be...........R10 or R10 with the maxed out Singlepower SDS or HE90 with the HEV90 and a Singlepower ES-1 on the way. Life must be tough.