Tweaks that shouldn't work, but do

[Dusty Chalk]

Over-generalizing, but soundstage shouldn't theoretically be any omnidirectional speaker's strong point.

That said, I appreciate your comments -- I think I still need to hear them myself, but the drooling has stopped. Especially the part about speed, which to me is very important.

Do you remember how their midrange was? I'm a big fan of a good midrange.

[Augsburger]

Well I understand your point, but for that kind of loot I would expect the 101s to perform superbly in every category. True enough that omnis are probably not a good match for my listening preferences, but I was not in the market for MBLs anyway so my audition wasn't a major disapointment to me. I was expecting that for $21K in amps and $50K in floorstanders there would be nothing that this system couldn't excel at. Pehaps I am a bit unrealistic and niave but the cost return slope seemed to have flattened out at their price point. Again for me the midrange was precise but lacking in emotion. I feel both Thelonius and Bill recorded in those two clubs should create a feeling and atmosphere which the midrange should help convey...... but the whole package was a bit flat. There could have been many reasons why this system disappointed me, ie the HD or MBL source, the room acoustics, the rain outside, so everyone needs to hear for themselves.

[deepak]

Well I understand your point, but for that kind of loot I would expect the 101s to perform superbly in every category. True enough that omnis are probably not a good match for my listening preferences, but I was not in the market for MBLs anyway so my audition wasn't a major disapointment to me. I was expecting that for $21K in amps and $50K in floorstanders there would be nothing that this system couldn't excel at. Pehaps I am a bit unrealistic and niave but the cost return slope seemed to have flattened out at their price point. Again for me the midrange was precise but lacking in emotion. I feel both Thelonius and Bill recorded in those two clubs should create a feeling and atmosphere which the midrange should help convey...... but the whole package was a bit flat. There could have been many reasons why this system disappointed me, ie the HD or MBL source, the room acoustics, the rain outside, so everyone needs to hear for themselves.

Can you post the catalog numbers for those recordings? They sound really good.

I've recently found the Thelonius K2 remasters to be a big step up from the standard releases.

[Dusty Chalk]

I was expecting that for $21K in amps and $50K in floorstanders there would be nothing that this system couldn't excel at. Pehaps I am a bit unrealistic ...

Yes, I think you were being unrealistic to expect omnis to excel at that holographic soundstage that I've heard with the best recordings. Again, this is just theory, but here's why:

Soundstage is an illusion. The speakers are not only recreating the direct sound of the original recording hall, but also the reflections. The better speakers are at recreating those sounds, the more "you are there" you will get. Omnis are going to add their own (well, the room's) reflections, because they're literally projecting sound around the room in a more energetic manner than regular dynamic speakers, which tend to beam somewhat.

At least, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. I read a review recently of the smaller MBL in which the reviewer claimed excellent imaging, but I tell you what -- I remain skeptical.

[Augsburger]

Deepak- I will provide the XRCD serial numbers this evening.

Dusty, my needs are quite simple (to me). I just want speakers to create a live soundstage with the detail of live music. I was not in the market for a particular type of speaker whether omnidirectional or planar full range or whatever. I was just interested in hearing the music presented in the manner I prefer. My earlier post was intended to share my overall experiences that day and specificaly to ojnih's statement that luckily "i use my computer as my source". My point was the store owner used his computer as a source with a high end system and to me that combo was not a panacea. Perhaps someone else could do better with the same or other components.

In this case, being unrealistic has saved me $70K and based on your opinion I probably should stay away from omnis. For that I thank you.

Opps! Sorry for the thread hijack.

[grawk]

Yes, I think you were being unrealistic to expect omnis to excel at that holographic soundstage that I've heard with the best recordings. Again, this is just theory, but here's why:

Soundstage is an illusion. The speakers are not only recreating the direct sound of the original recording hall, but also the reflections. The better speakers are at recreating those sounds, the more "you are there" you will get. Omnis are going to add their own (well, the room's) reflections, because they're literally projecting sound around the room in a more energetic manner than regular dynamic speakers, which tend to beam somewhat.

At least, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. I read a review recently of the smaller MBL in which the reviewer claimed excellent imaging, but I tell you what -- I remain skeptical.

I would expect omnis to do an excellent job of imaging, but would be HIGHLY placement dependent. Ideal would be in the middle of a very large room. It would of course be recording dependent as well.

As a recordist, my absolute favorite rock recordings were made with omni mics, placed very wide, for an outdoor concert.

That said, most rooms had shitty reflections, and so you had to compensate with microphones of varying directionality. I tended to record with a technique known as mid-side, using a subcard (nearly omni, rejects about 90 directly to the rear, but gets almost everything else, and a figure 8 microphone, which records the left and right sounds rejecting the 90 degrees front and 90 degrees rear. Mix them together, and you get a very sweet, encompassing sound that is easy to reproduce with most stereos.

[Dusty Chalk]

Dusty, my needs are quite simple (to me). I just want speakers to create a live soundstage with the detail of live music. I was not in the market for a particular type of speaker whether omnidirectional or planar full range or whatever. I was just interested in hearing the music presented in the manner I prefer. My earlier post was intended to share my overall experiences that day and specificaly to ojnih's statement that luckily "i use my computer as my source". My point was the store owner used his computer as a source with a high end system and to me that combo was not a panacea. Perhaps someone else could do better with the same or other components.

In this case, being unrealistic has saved me $70K and based on your opinion I probably should stay away from omnis. For that I thank you.

Well, first of all, I hope you don't take my previous post as arguing with you about your impressions, only with your expectations -- I understand what you are saying, and yes, I agree, from what I am saying, I would say, stay away from omnis. I am by no means defending the MBLs -- if what is important to you is soundstaging and imaging, and they don't excel at that, then they are definitely not for you. I also still appreciate the impressions -- I know how to read impressions, even negative ones, to see if there is still something I'm interested in. I am the target market for omnis, and even at US$70K, I still wouldn't expect them to excel at imaging (except in maybe the scenario grawk gives, or perhaps in an acoustically soundproofed room [i forget what they're called]), but then, that's not important to me, which is why I asked about midrange and so on.

grawk -- I understand what you're saying, but I was speaking in generalities. I'm sure you could come up with a few isolated examples of rooms and/or recordings that they might excel at, but I stand by my disagreement -- most recordings with any sense of soundstage were done with directional mics (e.g. Mapletree, Weavers at Carnegie Hall, etc.). Ears are directional...ish (more like a cardioid mic than anything else, I think), so recording something with an omni mic I would think would be too much information (especially in terms of reflections), but if one had a surround mic, or...have you heard those recordings that Kimber has started doing, yet? I haven't, but I heard they image superbly. I think that might yield a more realistic soundstage.

[grawk]

grawk -- I understand what you're saying, but I was speaking in generalities. I'm sure you could come up with a few isolated examples of rooms and/or recordings that they might excel at, but I stand by my disagreement -- most recordings with any sense of soundstage were done with directional mics (e.g. Mapletree, Weavers at Carnegie Hall, etc.). Ears are directional...ish (more like a cardioid mic than anything else, I think), so recording something with an omni mic I would think would be too much information (especially in terms of reflections), but if one had a surround mic, or...have you heard those recordings that Kimber has started doing, yet? I haven't, but I heard they image superbly. I think that might yield a more realistic soundstage.

Omnis are extremely hard to get a great recording with, because they pick up everything. But they capture the sound in the best way, so when you CAN use them, you really should.

There's a lot of options when it comes to making a good recording, and a lot to take into account. The setup I mentioned, with the subcard and the figure 8, comes VERY close to my ideal setup in most rooms, which is why it's what i mostly used. You can tweak the recording after the fact to use more or less side, depending on the accoustics of the room, shift the image left or right, etc. It takes real world into account in a very useful way. Omnis are for ideal situations, for playback and recording. If I could, I'd build my house so that I could use omni speakers...

If you want to see some REALLY cool recording gear, check out the soundfield ST350. It's a 4 point recording system that captures everything you need for surround on all 3 axis. I REALLY want one, but a 4 channel recorder and a $5500 microphone aren't in the cards right now.

[Augsburger]

Dusty, I appreciate the information regardles of the method of delivery because you post from knowledge, experience and resonable judgement. Thanks for cluing me in because I have wrongly assumed all these years that omnis excelled at sound stage imaging. That is why I appreciate HC because here you get useful opinions not just pratter someone heard on an infomercial.

[guzziguy]

I am ashamed to admit that I tried the Auric Illuminator, Zerostat gun, demagnitizers and the famed green pen..... none made as much difference as upgrading to MFSL or XRCD's or a better source. Were there "subtle" differences? Perhaps, but so close it may have been attribitable to placebo to me and I don't bother with them anymore. Now I feel better that I have shared my dark secret with the HC.

Bingo! In all the audio forums in which I've participated, I've seen many people search for the perfect sound by agonizing over minute differences between equipment, by constantly "upgrading" their equipment and by trying all sorts of "magic enhancements". Yet I've found that nothing effects the SQ nearly as much as the SQ of the recording. A badly recorded CD played by the latest APL NWO and comparable equipment will sound worse than a similar but well recorded CD played through a modest, but competent system.

In other words, the best upgrade one can do is to buy well recorded software. Unfortunately, it seems to be difficult to find well recorded software of artists we like to listen to. Also, this doesn't mean that I don't think that my eXemplar Denon 2900 isn't the best digital source that I've owned.

Of course, this is all my opinion. You can have yours too, even if it's wrong!

[Augsburger]

Can you post the catalog numbers for those recordings? They sound really good.

I've recently found the Thelonius K2 remasters to be a big step up from the standard releases.

Bill Evans Trio XRCD- #JVCXR-0036-2

Dave Brubeck- CK-65122

The rest require Homeland Security Clearance first

[Dusty Chalk]

Dusty, I appreciate the information regardles of the method of delivery because you post from knowledge, experience and resonable judgement. Thanks for cluing me in because I have wrongly assumed all these years that omnis excelled at sound stage imaging. That is why I appreciate HC because here you get useful opinions not just pratter someone heard on an infomercial.

Well, hopefully "...and because I qualified my statements enough" works its way in there, too.

grawk -- thanks for the info. I will take someone's personal experience over my theoretical knowledge any day, but alas, have not the budget for yet another mic in my arsenal. Perhaps when we get down to serious recording I'll rent a good one to see what I can do. I have to admit to not having much luck making field recordings. I was tempted just to get this and stop worrying about it.

[Upstateguy]

Bingo! ...

In other words, the best upgrade one can do is to buy well recorded software. ....

I agree............

[grawk]

Well, hopefully "...and because I qualified my statements enough" works its way in there, too.

grawk -- thanks for the info. I will take someone's personal experience over my theoretical knowledge any day, but alas, have not the budget for yet another mic in my arsenal. Perhaps when we get down to serious recording I'll rent a good one to see what I can do. I have to admit to not having much luck making field recordings. I was tempted just to get this and stop worrying about it.

If you want something recorded, lemme know. I'll see what i can do to help. I don't own gear anymore, but have lots of friends in the area who still do.

[Tachikoma]

<theadrevival>http://www.1388.com/articles/10_decade.htm</threadrevival>

[Augsburger]

If you want something recorded, lemme know. I'll see what i can do to help. I don't own gear anymore, but have lots of friends in the area who still do.

Grawk,

Know any medium's? How about a seance with some Bill Evans?

[OverlordXenu]

The issue isnt whether your silver shot glass or their silver resonator and the materials. Obviously they contribute because of their mechanical shape...

The problem is why is platinum and gold better sounding than copper or silver or whatever on that website? It just seems too convenient of a coincidence. Why does gold cables seem to be advertised as both warm AND detailed? What the fuck? So silver is more detailed because its shiny and costs more and copper is warm because of the color- so by that logic gold is warm because of the color and detailed because of the price?

Just like wood. The rarer/prettier the wood the better it sounds? I swear people are retarded.

I enjoy your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[hYdrociTy]

Colouration: crystal clear, vibrant golden-amber under a shortish white skim of foam. Analogue++

Highs: An opus of complexity - fizz, sparkle and splash, with notes of cool winter morning air, watermelon chunks on a hot summer's evening and intense sweet integration/extension.

Midrange: biscuit/caramel comfort, juicy cane sugar texture, resinous pine aroma. Good interplay between sweet and bitter profiles. Acidic ting bite in the decay.

Bass: dense, but slick and smooth, with peppery carbonation fun.

PRaT: Rock solid style. Hits all the right notes with an incredibly intense slap and slam. Not the most complex/layered musicality I've had overall from a digital sourse, but impressively balanced with hints of digital resolution and dynamics high atop the lush analogue platform.

MSRP: ~ $2.99 USD for a tube of 3.

Synergy with other mods: Especially effective when paired with power supply mod which removes ac line grunge that may obscure the audible benefits of the Blue Orb:

For added effect, insert third capasitor, because jamais deux sans trois.

[Augsburger]

You are the best!!!

[OverlordXenu]

Is that a racket ball?

[JBLoudG20]

Is that a racket ball?

Nice one, captain obvious.

[ojnihs]

Nice one, captain obvious.

[hungrych]

Is that a racket ball?

It's a Blue Orb, jagbag.