When do you consider an amp "high end"

[Marconisalad]

When your having turkey franks and soup in a cup while listening to your new amp - it's 'high end'.

[jp11801]

my excuse is that no one builds the balanced tube amp I want.

You'll get the chance to hear the HD2 Saturday if you come to the meet

[boomana]

Yay! jp#s has arrived out of guest-lurk mode. It's about time!

[909]

hell yeah!

[Edwood]

When it costs at least $3K and weighs more than 3K.

[Duggeh]

When the heatsinks are larger than the mechanicals.

[oicdn]

I personally don't think you can count a DIY as high end. I know it may be expensive, but the whole doing it yourself thing doesn't really ooze "hi end" as much as something from from a manufacturer. I dunno, it can be just as high quality, and in many cases, HIGHER quality, but meh...I dunno...hard to explain. I also think aesthetics play a fairly decent part in it's consideration, a you could have the most rediculous parts, if it looks like ass or 'meh', it's grouped as so.

To give an analogy, it's like Karting. I dunno how many of you kart, but a homemade custom made Kart frame/parts, even if it performs better, it's looked at as custom, not "high-end", even if made of Ti or whatever. Whereas the guy down the pit has an expensive manufactured frame, and everybody looks as his parts as high end, and yours as just custom. Even if it's clearly better, in both QC standards, contruction, and performance, they're not quite in the same "class", even though they compete against eachother directly.

Personally, I could care less what it's "classified as"...lets face it, it's nice to brag to friends or other people that "this is high end"(or just knowing yourself), but if they're not in the hobby, ESPECIALLY with headphones, they'll just give you a look like and think you're an idiot for spending so much money on "headphone stuff" regardless, lol.

[n_maher]

I personally don't think you can count a DIY as high end.

Please don't lump all of DIY together. Put my dac and something "commercial" like an Ack DAC next to each other and you tell me which was made in my shop. Oh wait, mine looks better and more professional, my bad.

[grawk]

I'd think DIY is the most likely to be high end. Not sure why it'd be excluded.

[aerius]

I personally don't think you can count a DIY as high end. I know it may be expensive, but the whole doing it yourself thing doesn't really ooze "hi end" as much as something from from a manufacturer. I dunno, it can be just as high quality, and in many cases, HIGHER quality, but meh...I dunno...hard to explain. I also think aesthetics play a fairly decent part in it's consideration, a you could have the most rediculous parts, if it looks like ass or 'meh', it's grouped as so.

Maybe you'd like to tell me which one of these is DIY and which one is a high-end commercial product.

[spritzer]

While a PIMETA isn't high end most of the real high end is DIY with hand made parts that would cost a fortune to make and the circuits optimized to perfection. There are only a handful of companies that make a no compromise stab at the high end while there are hundreds of DIY attempts because those individuals weren't happy with what the hi-fi industry was producing. The chassis work should be focused the best layout while being functional and not pretty so you can show off to your friends.

[boomana]

I personally don't think you can count a DIY as high end. I know it may be expensive, but the whole doing it yourself thing doesn't really ooze "hi end" as much as something from from a manufacturer.

....Personally, I could care less what it's "classified as"...lets face it, it's nice to brag to friends or other people that "this is high end"

Wow, Nate, got some ugly ego and stupidity combined here...blech.

[Tony]

Sorry, wrong thread.

[Icarium]

Uh... your analogy re: karting is totally flawed. Commercial makers have the edge there because they have R&D and better fab and R&D matters a lot.

But the difference in amp making between a 1 man commercial amp operation and a skilled/experienced DIYer is very, very slim (Non existent practically). Moreover besides mainly chassis they are all drawing from the same pool as far as parts go and DIYers can afford to go much, much more extravagant in parts quality because they are saving by not having to pay only cost for parts and not mark up for a finished product. Yes some companies do their own machining and some even add some innovation to design (Or use completely new designs).. but those are the edge cases most are not putting as much percentage wise into r&d as any go kart maker even if you scale the industries to match each other. Some amp makers are using really old designs with 0 innovation and some are using open source DIY designs that have been floating on the DIY community for YEARS.

This is hardly to say that there aren't advantages to going with an established amp manufacturer (Lack of DIY skills/Warranty/Potentially better looking/better build quality product/Time-saving except for wait time)... but to rule out a DIY amp from being classified as high end... that honestly would have anywhere from 2-10x markup in price if it came from a commercial builder is an astonishing display of ignorance.

[thrice]

I personally don't think you can count a DIY as high end. I know it may be expensive, but the whole doing it yourself thing doesn't really ooze "hi end" as much as something from from a manufacturer. I dunno, it can be just as high quality, and in many cases, HIGHER quality, but meh...I dunno...hard to explain. I also think aesthetics play a fairly decent part in it's consideration, a you could have the most rediculous parts, if it looks like ass or 'meh', it's grouped as so.

To give an analogy, it's like Karting. I dunno how many of you kart, but a homemade custom made Kart frame/parts, even if it performs better, it's looked at as custom, not "high-end", even if made of Ti or whatever. Whereas the guy down the pit has an expensive manufactured frame, and everybody looks as his parts as high end, and yours as just custom. Even if it's clearly better, in both QC standards, contruction, and performance, they're not quite in the same "class", even though they compete against eachother directly.

Personally, I could care less what it's "classified as"...lets face it, it's nice to brag to friends or other people that "this is high end"(or just knowing yourself), but if they're not in the hobby, ESPECIALLY with headphones, they'll just give you a look like and think you're an idiot for spending so much money on "headphone stuff" regardless, lol.

So essentially something has to look good to be high-end, regardless of price or quality, or function....by that regard everything/nothing is high-end since someone somewhere is going to think that component X looks/doesn't look good.

interesting logic.

[thrice]

Please don't lump all of DIY together. Put my dac and something "commercial" like an Ack DAC next to each other and you tell me which was made in my shop. Oh wait, mine looks better and more professional, my bad.

I kinda like the Ack Dac case.

[n_maher]

Watch it MOT boy, given my new custom title you'll wanna play nice.

[boomana]

Watch it MOT boy, given my new custom title you'll wanna play nice.

Wow. Vince is a mod mot now.

[hYdrociTy]

[thrice]

Watch it MOT boy, given my new custom title you'll wanna play nice.

Bring it:

[oicdn]

Nice how that was kinda thrown out of context, but I get the point. I shouldn't have lumped the DIY all together. Aesthetics included. But it was a general statement I should have elaborated on.

But for the most part, alot of the DIY projects have generic cases, or no cases at all. I understand that there is a bit of esoteric aura around that, but the bottom line is, it looks incomplete.

Hi-end is a perceived value(mostly of a commecrial context), as evident by this thread. It is of my opinion, that the externals should match the internals. I'm well aware of subtleness, etc, but from a consumers POV, if you're spending a large sum of money, and you get a plastic case, chances are, you're a little irked, and will end up venting on a forum like this one. I don't care how good it sounds. You'de be complaining if you spend a large sum of money, and got a crap fit and finish.

As for the karting, just because it is a mass produced frame/part DOES NOT necessarily mean there's R&D (hell, look at RSA, lol). Granted, majority have R&D behind them, but also, many companies take the designs of PROVEN working models and just improve upon it simply because they have the resources. I can honestly say that I don't have a heavy background in karting, but a buddy does..

He has a CNC lathe and 4D machine in his garage (had his entire house rewired to accept the machines in his garage) and one offs many motorcycle and karting parts. I know simply from his abilty to cnc parts at his discretion, there have been companies who have observed his designs and actually bought his ideas from seeing the performance at the races. R&D is important, but it's not everything, as evidenced by him. He's a one man show and does karting as a hobby, it's kinda the reason I used him as an example.

[en480c4]

I'm well aware of subtleness, etc, but from a consumers POV, if you're spending a large sum of money, and you get a plastic case, chances are, you're a little irked, and will end up venting on a forum like this one. I don't care how good it sounds. You'de be complaining if you spend a large sum of money, and got a crap fit and finish.

Guess what, if there's a consumer involved, it's no longer Do It Yourself, and instead just a shitty manufacturer trying to make a quick buck. DIY is about actually doing something, which means if you can't design it, at least build the damn thing.

As for design, DIY designs are some of the best out there, with the Beta22, mini3 and the like as perfect examples.

Just because some knucklehead throws one together, uses JBWeld to secure jacks and wood screws to secure PCBs, and then sells it doesn't mean that DIY isn't high end. It just mean someone's an idiot for thinking they should sell it, and someone else is an idiot for buying it.

[postjack]

x2!!!

[hYdrociTy]

Nice how that was kinda thrown out of context, but I get the point. I shouldn't have lumped the DIY all together. Aesthetics included. But it was a general statement I should have elaborated on.

But for the most part, alot of the DIY projects have generic cases, or no cases at all. I understand that there is a bit of esoteric aura around that, but the bottom line is, it looks incomplete.

The only diy projects that don't have cases or have "esoteric(read:bootleg)" ones are usually mine but I am a fake noob diy wannabe so please do not lump me together with the general diy populace who usually do a fine job. Example one two three four five six etc...

Hi-end is a perceived value(mostly of a commecrial context), as evident by this thread. It is of my opinion, that the externals should match the internals.

Do you even look at what the "internals" are inside most "high-end" electronics? I have never seen anything "match" because there are no such thing as pcb or point to point cases...

example of a HIGH END ZOMG VALUE FTW amp: Krell baby!

I'm well aware of subtleness, etc, but from a consumers POV, if you're spending a large sum of money, and you get a plastic case, chances are, you're a little irked, and will end up venting on a forum like this one. I don't care how good it sounds. You'de be complaining if you spend a large sum of money, and got a crap fit and finish.

Again, you can choose a METAL case that can be personalized and made to look good with engravings or colors/paint or added on structures etc... Where did you get the idea that diy = plastic case or hammond + shoddy drilling?

As for the karting, just because it is a mass produced frame/part DOES NOT necessarily mean there's R&D (hell, look at RSA, lol). Granted, majority have R&D behind them, but also, many companies take the designs of PROVEN working models and just improve upon it simply because they have the resources. I can honestly say that I don't have a heavy background in karting, but a buddy does..

PROVEN DESIGNS LIKE TEH HORNET RIGHT? THEY IMPROVED IT WITH A DAC!!! AND IT STILL HAS SPACE FOR THE GIANT CAP!

He has a CNC lathe and 4D machine in his garage (had his entire house rewired to accept the machines in his garage) and one offs many motorcycle and karting parts. I know simply from his abilty to cnc parts at his discretion, there have been companies who have observed his designs and actually bought his ideas from seeing the performance at the races. R&D is important, but it's not everything, as evidenced by him. He's a one man show and does karting as a hobby, it's kinda the reason I used him as an example.

as an aspiring diyer these comments just tick off this midol-deprived-hungry-as-hell kirby. Meet ticked-face: (>`-`)>

[oicdn]

I hear ya...but alot of people CAN'T build and buy a DIY design, like the ones you listed.

And unfortuneatly, some of the builders use cheap-ass-wanker parts and it as a whole, makes the whole DIY amp a sour view, especially if they use the WRONG parts, but same general lay-out. Obviously the buyer has no fucking clue of the specifics of what they're buying into other than a DIY design that somebody has to build because they can't built it themselves, and they've heard "dat Beta double-duece is mad tyte soundin yo!"....

If I could EFFECTIVELY build my own amp I would, and aside from the browsing of boards, I don't really have that much time on my hands. I built a cMoy once, and was exceedingly proud of myself, lol. Worked good for what it was. However, I didn't like the sound, and sold it for a commercial offering. And I'm willing to bet, the general unbeknowing noob will associate that cMoy sound/quality, with most anything DIY....