postjack Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Vinyl Source: $400 direct drive turntable first manufactured in 1978. It has gone through no changes since then. It is generally believed that there is too much rubber in the design, and the tonearm is obsolete. $200 phono stage with a 12ax7 tube from some company called Bellari $85 Audio Technica cart. Total: just shy of $700 Digital Source: Modwright Sony 999es. The mods alone cost $1150, I don't know what the 999es goes for on the used market. Mods include: # Upgrade rectifiers to Harris FRED ultrafast soft-recovery diodes # Upgrade main stock power supply filtering caps. # Replace Stereo analog stage with our own Class A tube stage # External custom built tube power supply ***6.09.04 - New PS design features choke current regulation and discrete FET-based voltage regulation*** # Auricap coupling caps at outputs, tube stage direct-coupled from player. # Tube Stage Specifications: 5687 dual triodes x 2. High-current, zero-feedback, Class A design. Low output impedance, capable of driving tube or solid-stage amp or preamp. So what we are probably looking at is the digital source runs roughly twice the cost of the analog, and it just doesn't sound as good. There is a realness, a presence, and a delicious liquidity all swirling in a limitless black space with the vinyl. I don't even hear the pops and crackles on my old crappy records anymore. I remember these used to really bother me, but now they don't. I think my ears are being spoiled. On the other hand, the sound from the 999es, at least with redbook, very much exists in a space. Sometimes I feel like my recording has been placed in a 16-bit box and when I put on my headphones and hit play I am just looking down in that box, "hey, there is my music there." Whereas with vinyl I am there with the music in infinite space, sharing in the universal groove, weaving in and out of all the sounds. About the only time the 999es approaches vinyl is with a very well mastered SACD. I'm not trying to make any kind of grandiose statement here, or put either of my sources up on some kind of pedestal, I'm just telling you what I'm hearing. In my system, to my ears, my budget-priced, outdated vinyl rig sounds better then my heavily modified digital rig, and for half the money. An aside: I really need a new redbook player with a satisfying, analog-esque sound. Will I find my answer in the Rega Apollo? Dare I pull the trigger? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hungrych Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Spend more money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerius Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 So what we are probably looking at is the digital source runs roughly twice the cost of the analog, and it just doesn't sound as good. There is a realness, a presence, and a delicious liquidity all swirling in a limitless black space with the vinyl. I don't even hear the pops and crackles on my old crappy records anymore. I remember these used to really bother me, but now they don't. I think my ears are being spoiled. On the other hand, the sound from the 999es, at least with redbook, very much exists in a space. Sometimes I feel like my recording has been placed in a 16-bit box and when I put on my headphones and hit play I am just looking down in that box, "hey, there is my music there." Whereas with vinyl I am there with the music in infinite space, sharing in the universal groove, weaving in and out of all the sounds. About the only time the 999es approaches vinyl is with a very well mastered SACD. I know that feeling, I have my parents' old Dual turntable which is also a direct drive record spinner with the original Shure V15 TypeIII cartridge. I don't even have a separate phono stage, I'm using the phono input on my Technics receiver along with its headphone output jack to drive my Senn 580's. If I put my good LP's it's still fucking awesome, it makes my Senns not suck which is a small miracle in itself, and something which my CD rig with the full out tube amp can't do. The CDP/tube/K340 rig can still beat my vinyl rig in most areas and in terms of enjoyment they're about equal, but when we're talking about value & fun for the money there's no contest here, vinyl rules. I suspect that once I get an up to date cartridge and build a nice tube phono stage, my turntable will end up crushing my CD rig in practically every aspect. An aside: I really need a new redbook player with a satisfying, analog-esque sound. Will I find my answer in the Rega Apollo? Dare I pull the trigger? I recently heard the Apollo and I'd have to say probably not. It doesn't have the big real sound of good analog, the only CD player I've heard which does is the Audio Aero Capitole and those ain't exactly cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepak Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I have only heard two needle drops using this setup: Vinyl >> Music Hall MMF-5 turntable with Goldring G1012 cartridge & Music Hall Cruise Control speedbox >> Yamaha RX-570 Receiver (phono stage preamp) >> E-MU 0404 External soundcard {ASIO} (24Bit\96kHz) >> Laptop and they sound amazing. I can't wait to hear my rig...finally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 ...i don't think the Apollo is going to be an upgrade from your Modwright...I agree with ER, but not for the reasons stated. But you won't know for yourself unless you try. Is it really that bad? I don't hear that much of a difference. I mean, don't get me wrong, vinyl (/analog) is better, but I don't get that looking-through-a-telescope vs. being-there difference. It's more like seeing with/without glasses kind of thing (when I was 1.25 nearsighted). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postjack Posted June 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Is it really that bad? I don't hear that much of a difference. I mean, don't get me wrong, vinyl (/analog) is better, but I don't get that looking-through-a-telescope vs. being-there difference. It's more like seeing with/without glasses kind of thing (when I was 1.25 nearsighted). To answer "Is it really that bad?", the answer is no. The 999es is a fine player, and I hope to continue to get lots of enjoyment out of it. I wasn't trying to knock it in my OP. I am just finding that more and more often, I am craving and growing into the vinyl sound. This didn't happen as soon as I got my TT, it has taken a few months of listening. When my first cart busted (due to my own ignorance) was when I realized how much I liked that vinyl sound. And I didn't even LIKE my first cart, not enough treble "sparkle". I actually thought my table was to blame for this dullness until I got the AT440MLa in last week. Regardless, in the interim I really was missing spinning records, and this past weekend I have had many enjoyable listening sessions. But perhaps the price for my vinyl rig is a bit misleading, because vinyl is such a money sink. In addition to the costs detailed above, I also have to consider the record cleaning machine, shure stylus gauge, hi fi news TT setup and test lp, spendy disc doctor brushes and fluids, onzow zerodust stylus cleaner, audioquest carbon fiber dry brush, and of course all the storage supplies from Bags Unlimited: four corrugated plastic storage boxes, hundreds of plastic lined paper sleeves, and hundreds of resealable plastic sleeves. Not to mention the crazy high prices of current production vinyl, though the majority of my records are older. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
909 Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Sorry, postjack--but thanks for reminding me how vinyl can be so taxingly time consuming, challenging and expensive even with a decent entry rig. And that doesn't take into account the skill required to acheive proper set-up and dialing-in all the bits and pieces together. Still on occasion I struggle to walk away from vinyl and the only reason is certain commercially available recordings are just piss poor on CD. Though, I've bought some vinyl releases that are equally uninspiring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postjack Posted June 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Sorry, postjack--but thanks for reminding me how vinyl can be so taxingly time consuming, challenging and expensive even with a decent entry rig. And that doesn't take into account the skill required to acheive proper set-up and dialing-in all the bits and pieces together. Still on occasion I struggle to walk away from vinyl and the only reason is certain commercially available recordings are just piss poor on CD. Though, I've bought some vinyl releases that are equally uninspiring. Absolutely. I also want to make clear that this isn't a "your a chump if you don't listen to vinyl!!" post. And the setup is a huge pain. In fact I've ordered another integrated cart from Kevin at KAB because I love feeling confident that my cart alignment is perfect, and I am pretty sure something is amiss with my AT440MLa alignment, even though it sounds fantastic. This time I sprung for the Ortofon, since it supposedly has a bit more of the brightness I was missing with the Groovemaster. I have to hand it to Kevin, he has done a lot to make vinyl playback as simple as possible. Plus it helps that he is great about responding to emails and giving honest responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salt Peanuts Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I love my vinyl setup, too, though I love my digital setup just as much. I'm probably replacing my current tube phonostage (ARC PH3) with a solid state one later in the summer. Hopefully, I'll be done after that and when β22 arrives to serve as my headphone/preamp. Then I'll think adding more vinyls to my collection. Hmm, maybe I'll pick up ton of vinyls instead of getting into DIY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postjack Posted June 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Hmm, maybe I'll pick up ton of vinyls instead of getting into DIY. Thats some good horse sense right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrice Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I too am very happy with my Rega P1/Bottlehead Seduction viynl setup....now to get a balanced phono stage.....any suggestions. Glad to hear you're happy with your viynl rig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recstar24 Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I too am very happy with my Rega P1/Bottlehead Seduction viynl setup....now to get a balanced phono stage.....any suggestions. Glad to hear you're happy with your viynl rig RSA XR-10B!!!! yay!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerius Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I too am very happy with my Rega P1/Bottlehead Seduction viynl setup....now to get a balanced phono stage.....any suggestions. Build this. It's beyond my skills at the moment, but I'm pretty sure someone on the board can build one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhd812 Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 my Rega p3 with the RSA xr-2 can go head to head with the g08. vinyl my friend is something one should not forget! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
909 Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 You've got two TTs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhd812 Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 You've got two TTs? yelp, one is not being used (Rega). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
909 Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 -wow- why? (is it a back-up table ) How much better is the Scout than the P3? How does your vinyl rigs (either one of them--but mostly the Scout) stand up agaisnt the 808i? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhd812 Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 -wow- why? (is it a back-up table ) How much better is the Scout than the P3? How does your vinyl rigs (either one of them--but mostly the Scout) stand up agaisnt the 808i? scout is a new more forward sound, cleaner and faster. both are great tt's to my ears. i dont have the 808 to directly compare to the vinyl..just a go8. vinyl can easily stand tall, esp when its setup perfectly perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
909 Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 what about your 808 audio memory compared to your vinyl experience? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hYdrociTy Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Thrice you're p1, bottlehead, and stax is my fav rig ever! My experience with your setup echos postjack's revelation .I am about to finish the b22 in maybe a week and once I'm done with that ill look into getting the rega and bottlehead! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrice Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Thrice you're p1, bottlehead, and stax is my fav rig ever! My experience with your setup echos postjack's revelation .I am about to finish the b22 in maybe a week and once I'm done with that ill look into getting the rega and bottlehead! Thanks...I like it a lot too. I wish our floors weren't so soft here at the house.....vibration control is a real issue. So I only listen when i'm home alone and late at night when the dog is not bounding around. But yeah...it's a sweet setup for the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhd812 Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 what about your 808 audio memory compared to your vinyl experience? unless I had both in hand with a setup I know well You know i can not compare..its true. the 808 vs the g08 comparo I did was on a setup using gear i know well. the rega p3 with the RSA xr-2 has been compared directly using the same music (for example I have a lot of double music, cd and vinyl). Not sure if it was the tt I was using or the cartridge or the phono stage, I think its more to the fact vinyl can really do something big..really. I am not selling the p3 cause I bought it off of Ray and I may need it, not that Ray has anything wrong with the sale but how do I sell it? "yeh this was RSA's table" or not say anything? I am one to give complete background to people who are truely interested in any gear I sell. I am also waiting to see if I am going to have a second setup at the bar for me, I have been there a lot more then I would like to admit but I may move some gear there as a work rig also.. 909 did I ever tell you there is a used record shop across the street from the bar I am in? imagine if I moved in a vinyl work rig, that would be fucking nuts!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
909 Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 that record shop is like a crack house across the street from where a crack addict works (well, sort of ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhd812 Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 that record shop is like a crack house across the street from where a crack addict works (well, sort of ) oh your right on the money, hell thats putting it nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postjack Posted June 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 that record shop is like a crack house across the street from where a crack addict works (well, sort of ) I can't stop buying vinyl. Its the ultimate impulse purchase. Like I saw a sealed copy of Rollins Band "Weight", which is pressed on clear vinyl, $30. Well when the hell I'm I going to see that again?! Snag it! Even new production vinyl can go OOP so fast, I feel like I have to buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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