Ramblings on the importance of amps

[aerius]

This is something I've been thinking about for quite some time now, why is it that some headphones are automatically assumed to require super-expensive over the top amps while others aren't? The examples I'm specifically thinking of are the Senn 580/6x0 and AKG K701 along with Grados like the RS-1.

As most of you have likely heard by now, everyone "knows" that the Senns & AKG "need" the best amp money can buy, and if the sound isn't quite right it's always the fault of the amp because it's not good enough. I've also noticed that scores if not hundreds of people own $1000+ amps for the above headphones.

On the other side of the coin we have (John) Grados, everyone "knows" that they sound good even without an amp, and thus they don't really need an amp. I very rarely see someone with a full-out Grado amp, most people seem to stop somewhere around the MAD Ear+ Gilmore Lite or PPX3 level and that's the end of the line for them. As far as I've seen, there's maybe a dozen people or so who've actually spent more than $1000 on amps for their Grados.

I find this really strange for several reasons. I own a Grado 225 and Senn 580, and I've recently been using them a lot more. I've found that when fed from a good amp, the 225 scales every bit as well as a 580, and I think the two of them are pretty closely matched in terms detail & resolution. If I add the RS-1 to the mix, it'll handily pull away from any Senn when given a good amp.

Which finally leads to the question, just how important are amps to various headphones, and who the hell started these silly myths?

[hungrych]

It's probably because people equate low impedance with not needing to be amped.

[postjack]

It's probably because people equate low impedance with not needing to be amped.

...because people equate amplification with volume.

[qazwsx]

Because 32 ohms headphones improve with an amp. Typically they still sound alright out of a blank source, but with an amp they sound their best; without it you are getting about 50% volume and sound. Even those $50 Senns improve when amplfication is applied. Impedance simply shows how much they would improve with one, not if they would sound any different with one. Or that is how I see/hear it.

[recstar24]

The myth has carried weight because users are misinformed about things like impedance and equating that good sound = loud volume. "Oh, grados sound great out of my ipod, they don't need an amp." No, they do, and scale up nicely with better amps.

[granodemostasa]

because most grados suck and are unworthy of a decent amp

okay... i admit, the GS1000 is pretty good... and deserves a maestro (at least), and the PS-1 and Hp series... blah. but most people have RS-1s...

If i were a grado fan-boy, i'd buy it a kick ass amp... i don't know why others don't want ZD or supra or 300sei amps...

[HiWire]

Value for $$$... a lot of people have tin ears anyway

[Dusty Chalk]

I own a Grado 225 and Senn 580...the 225 scales every bit as well as a 580...Which finally leads to the question, just how important are amps to various headphones, and who the hell started these silly myths?

Wait, I'm confused, what's the myth? You just said, both headphones scale pretty well (which I have always taken to mean -- the better an amp you throw at them, the better they sound). So isn't the logical conclusion to throw absolutely the best amp at them that you can afford?

Besides, these are both HOTL headphones (high on the line -- not top of the line, but close) headphones, both, IIRC, receiving a great deal of trickle-down technology from both lines' TOTL headphones. It's not like the L3000 or R10 or the Qualia -- all of which just have weird sound signatures, and need the best amp one can throw at it for other reasons (e.g., in the R10's case, because it's a power-hungry pig).

So...what was the question again? I think I just rambled (yet another sign that I'm geezin'.)

[qazwsx]

Wait, I'm confused, what's the myth? You just said, both headphones scale pretty well (which I have always taken to mean -- the better an amp you throw at them, the better they sound). So isn't the logical conclusion to throw absolutely the best amp at them that you can afford?

Besides, these are both HOTL headphones (high on the line -- not top of the line, but close) headphones, both, IIRC, receiving a great deal of trickle-down technology from both lines' TOTL headphones. It's not like the L3000 or R10 or the Qualia -- all of which just have weird sound signatures, and need the best amp one can throw at it for other reasons (e.g., in the R10's case, because it's a power-hungry pig).

So...what was the question again? I think I just rambled (yet another sign that I'm geezin'.)

The question is how come when people see 32 to...say 80 ohms impedance on a pair of headphones, why, or rather how, does that mean they don't improve with amps? And it is a mix of lack of knowledge and believing in that myth. Low impedances headphones kind of fall into the want category. Headphones like the HD650 and K701 NEED an amp. Headphones like Grados and Audio Technicas don't NEED an amp, but would like and benefit from one. Yes they sound fine straight through the iPod or a computer, but they are not bringing out their full potiental, but rather 60% or so of their limits. Kind of like driving a race car with everything stock. You get 60-70% power, but you need an upgraded engine and shit to go the whole 100%.

[granodemostasa]

a little preaching to the choir no?

the thing is that most people who would buy big time amps for their stuff are not going to keep the HD580 or SR225 as their main can... they might as well move onto the RS-1.

I think, at the top, most people do recognize what improves and what doesn't improve (for example, I always liked the 325i better than the RS-1 until i started hearing the RS-1 on 2K$+ headphone amps.) The problem is how we answer the question. Say someone comes to Head-fi with a question "what is the best amp for my RS-1," the amps that they are likely to get are "mapletree," "melos" or "hornet." Now, ask that question about the HD650 and you'll get responses like "Cary 300sei" "SDS-XLR" "B52" and other very expensive amps.

[qazwsx]

a little preaching to the choir no?

the thing is that most people who would buy big time amps for their stuff are not going to keep the HD580 or SR225 as their main can... they might as well move onto the RS-1.

I think, at the top, most people do recognize what improves and what doesn't improve (for example, I always liked the 325i better than the RS-1 until i started hearing the RS-1 on 2K$+ headphone amps.) The problem is how we answer the question. Say someone comes to Head-fi with a question "what is the best amp for my RS-1," the amps that they are likely to get are "mapletree," "melos" or "hornet." Now, ask that question about the HD650 and you'll get responses like "Cary 300sei" "SDS-XLR" "B52" and other very expensive amps.

The RS1 would be improved with one of the inexpensive amps, but would still sound even better on the more expensive gear. It's the fact that those Senns indefinitely need an expensive amp because of their weak output. The RS1 has far from a weak output but would still improve through amplification. The inexpensive amps should power the RS1 a good 90%, but that 10% is still shoved in the freezer. Most people would be happily fine listening to their RS1/Alessnadro whatever through a Mapletree or Hornet. But some want that complete max speed, so they pay the big price to get the 100%. I'd say going for an inexpensive amp would be the best bet/value but if you have a ton of money burning a hole in your pocket (which is unlikely for most) you should get the Cary 300sei because you will get 100% of the RS1.

[mjg]

I think grados can really show off a good amp. For instance, my rs1's really never had a soundstage or such dynamics until i tried them out on the extreme. I can definatley hear an improvement over my previous amp (ppx3 w/ 5687s). Yet I don't know if the value can be really appreciated by most people. Who knows? I'm happy about it I guess, and well, I don't care too much what other people think.

[HiWire]

I think it's just logic or deep pockets... the person who is going to pay $2000 or more for an R10 is probably going to considering high-end amplification. There just isn't much reason to hook a KSC-75 up to some uber Singlepower, for example, other than curiosity... the headphone's limitations are far lower than the amp's. Also, the Stereophile article I was skimming, New Media Metrics, indicates that a large reserve of power is required to meet most speakers' requirements for sound.

To quote: blah blah blah techie talk... "The power output per channel required to achieve this is 57W. To achieve 16dB above this?about the largest 2ms dynamic power requirement identified by my measurements?means the amplifier must be able to deliver 2.27kW, albeit only over this short time span, in order to prevent clipping." You can check out the rest on their website http://www.stereophile.com/features/404metrics/index.html.

That's a lot of power... just scale that idea down for headphones: although there are differences in impedance and sensitivity, the same demand for instantaneous power is there.

[n_maher]

Which finally leads to the question, just how important are amps to various headphones, and who the hell started these silly myths?

My addition to your musings would be that I find it funny/frustrating/odd how amps get pigeon holed into only being good for one kind of headphones. Unless there is justification related to output impedance (or similar) I just don't see why a good amp wouldn't sound good with lots of different headphones.

[aerius]

My addition to your musings would be that I find it funny/frustrating/odd how amps get pigeon holed into only being good for one kind of headphones. Unless there is justification related to output impedance (or similar) I just don't see why a good amp wouldn't sound good with lots of different headphones.

It might be because people are using amps as a tuning device to make up for the flaws in their headphones, and at one time I was one of these people. With my Senn 580's for instance I needed a bit more fullness in the midrange and some added sparkle up top to bust through the "Senn veil", with my Grado 225 that sparkle becomes "crap, that's too bright". I eventually realized it was better to have a more neutral amp and tune the headphones instead.

Or it could be that people are just parrots and sheep and just follow along and repeat what everyone else is saying. On head-fi, I think the latter explanation is more likely.

[hYdrociTy]

Maybe it's just me but grados aren't that much less demanding of clean robust amplification. Maybe one hour less on the old knob but that doesn't mean an ipod jacks gonna do.

[alfie]

Hummm probably because it is true A RS1 scales up with an amp, but less than a HD650. Let's say I have no headphone amp, a RS1 and a HD650 and I go trying them around at any pre, speaker amp, computer audio card, DAP, whatever; at the end of the day I would buy the RS1 for sure. So, you can live with a RS1 and no amp. If you have not_the_end_of_the_world amp you get 95% out of a RS1. Most of people can live with that. With a HD650, you get 70% and that's the veil, the highs roll off (humm maybe that is for real ) and so on.

[Nanoha]

Yeah, I suppose so. But probably a lot lower than 70% or 95%. POS "mid-fi" commercial amps seriously don't do those two headphone justice in my opinion.

[JBLoudG20]

[me=JBLoudG20]grumbles[/me]

Why do I have a yearning for a 650 now?

EDIT: sweet '/me' translates here

[philodox]

Bah, amps don't do nothin'. They sure to look purdy though. Get one with 13 tubes and be done with it, thats my moto.

[NotoriousBIG_PJ]

If you have not_the_end_of_the_world amp you get 95% out of a RS1.

Thats the myth Aerius is referring to. RS-1 scales up extremely well, but most people don't know that because they pair them up with mid-fi amps or otl shit-box highend amps.

Biggie.

[philodox]

EDIT: sweet '/me' translates here

Cool, that takes me back to the days when I played MUSH's all day.

[me=philodox]runs around the room emoting to everyone![/me]

[postjack]

Cool, that takes me back to the days when I played MUSH's all day.

[me=philodox]runs around the room emoting to everyone![/me]

[me=postjack]would rather be at home playing lotro![/me]

[Nanoha]

Thats the myth Aerius is referring to. RS-1 scales up extremely well, but most people don't know that because they pair them up with mid-fi amps or otl shit-box highend amps.

Biggie.

Hah, I'll put it at 20% and 40% even when comparing unamped with use of otl shit-box highend amps. Supremely subjective as always of course.

[deepak]

Thats the myth Aerius is referring to. RS-1 scales up extremely well, but most people don't know that because they pair them up with mid-fi amps or otl shit-box highend amps.

Biggie.

What high $ OTL amps are you referring to?