Trilogy H1 electrostatic amp

[jose]

On ‎17‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 3:05 AM, JimL said:

If spritzer is correct that the output tubes are 6N6P, the data sheet says their maximum plate dissipation is 8 watts total for both anodes, max static plate voltage is 450 volts.  Pretty similar to 6SN7GTA/B at 7.5 watts total and max static plate voltage of 450 volts. 

So, What can be the advantage (or disadvantage) of using the 6N6P if it´s silimar to 6SN7GTx? Size and 0.5w?

[JimL]

On 8/20/2017 at 2:19 PM, jose said:

So, What can be the advantage (or disadvantage) of using the 6N6P if it´s similar to 6SN7GTx? Size and 0.5w?

Electrically, there probably isn't enough of a difference to be meaningful in terms of drive capability.  Sonically, there are lots of versions of the 6SN7GTA/B available, both NOS and new, moreso than the 6N6P, which gives the end user an opportunity to modify the "flavor" of the amp.  That could be considered an advantage or a disadvantage depending on your philosophy.

Edited August 23, 2017 by JimL

[Jon L]

Nice NOS 6SN7's cost stupid money these days, especially the "legendary" ones, so I tend to stay away from gear that sport 6SN7's.  I do have a box full of NOS 6SN7's which I hope lasts my lifetime    6N6P, however, means you you'd better like the Russian flavor...

[mwl168]

43 minutes ago, Jon L said:

Nice NOS 6SN7's cost stupid money these days, especially the "legendary" ones, so I tend to stay away from gear that sport 6SN7's.  I do have a box full of NOS 6SN7's which I hope lasts my lifetime    6N6P, however, means you you'd better like the Russian flavor...

FWIW, the early NOS 6SN7/VT231 are big money but not the later NOS 6SN7GTB and 6SN7GTA which are plentiful available and can be had for reasonable money for now - certainly much better than the NOS EL34. As JimL stressed many times, only the 6SN7GTB/A should be used in the SRX circuit unless B+ is brought down to within the spec of the 6SN7.

[JimL]

Yes, there are still NOS 6SN7GTA/B tubes at reasonable prices, and reportedly the new manufacture TungSol 6SN7GTB tubes sound good, according to both Upscale Audio and Jim McShane.

[jose]

18 hours ago, JimL said:

Yes, there are still NOS 6SN7GTA/B tubes at reasonable prices, and reportedly the new manufacture TungSol 6SN7GTB tubes sound good, according to both Upscale Audio and Jim McShane.

My experience with the SRX-P and new Tung Sol 6SN7GTB is very positive. I think that its´no t necessary spend money on NOS if you can find this tubes. 

[Monya]

According to the handbook the valves are 4 of 6C3PI and 2 of 6H6PI with a bias voltage of 560VDC

[spritzer]

Wow thanks for the info as that puts this into a whole other light.  So this is basically an Egmont or what Schiit deemed too bad an amp for 1k$...  Here is the datasheet for the tube:

http://www.nj7p.info/Tubes/PDFs/Frank/113-Soviet/6S3PE.pdf

So we have only four triodes per side so it has to be this:

About as simple as you can get and to charge people 5kUKP for this is just robbery. 

Funny enough, I made my own version of what I thought the amp was in the same form factor.  Just sent the PCB's off to be made yesterday so I'll have something built soon... 

Only 39mm tall with a bone stock SRX input based on the 6N2P (though any compatible tube will plug in there) and 6N6Pi output with a simple 10M90 CCS.  Only two coupling caps but with this novel idea of feedback... 

[Fitz]

Feedback? *scoff* If I wanted your feedback I'd ask for it.

Seriously though great work, man.

[kevin gilmore]

So an absolute maximum open loop gain of less than 1000 and at least 8db down at 20khz due to resistive loads.

nice job.

[spritzer]

Truly what the SR-009's need, 8dB down at 20khz will take care of that nasty treble harshness and any HF performance altogether... 

[kevin gilmore]

here is how to do it with just enough feedback to keep it flat and stable

 

trilogy.PDF

[JimL]

Of course, Trilogy is not clever enough to use MOSFET current sources.

[wink]

Hmmmmm... maybe they only had 3 attempts at getting it right..... hence he name trilogy....

[Monya]

I’ve been trying one out for the last 6 weeks fed from a Nagra dac into 009s. I’m coming from a 007tll kimik but also borrowed a t8000 for comparative purposes.

The new Stax unit sounds very similar to the old one, but a little more refined - lots of detail, rather bright, bass slightly improved. Not for me.

The Trilogy has a lot more body and substance with greater harmonic structure. Bass notes much improved over the Stax. High frequencies slightly rolled off but the detail is still there only less pronounced. This was designed with the 009s in mind which can sound a bit sharp up top.

I’m no electronics bod and have no idea if the circuitry is new, old or whatever but experience has taught me that advances don’t necessarily translate into sonic improvements. To me this amp is very musical and makes for long term easy listening which is what I’m after.

If I were living in the States I’d have the BHSE but over here in the UK living within 10 miles of the factory should something go tits up I’m more than happy. I don’t want to be shipping hardware across the pond or Iceland!

3 year warranty. Has to be used with remote as no buttons to press.

[Forza AudioWorks]

1 hour ago, Monya said:

I’ve been trying one out for the last 6 weeks fed from a Nagra dac into 009s. I’m coming from a 007tll kimik but also borrowed a t8000 for comparative purposes.

The new Stax unit sounds very similar to the old one, but a little more refined - lots of detail, rather bright, bass slightly improved. Not for me.

The Trilogy has a lot more body and substance with greater harmonic structure. Bass notes much improved over the Stax. High frequencies slightly rolled off but the detail is still there only less pronounced. This was designed with the 009s in mind which can sound a bit sharp up top.

I’m no electronics bod and have no idea if the circuitry is new, old or whatever but experience has taught me that advances don’t necessarily translate into sonic improvements. To me this amp is very musical and makes for long term easy listening which is what I’m after.

If I were living in the States I’d have the BHSE but over here in the UK living within 10 miles of the factory should something go tits up I’m more than happy. I don’t want to be shipping hardware across the pond or Iceland!

3 year warranty. Has to be used with remote as no buttons to press.

Hardly any surprise there with tuning, all Trilogy stuff sounds quite similar; gutsy and authoritative. These machines are not about speed, clarity and resolution in the first place, but substance and thickness instead. As you've put it, musicality is the focus usually. Their 933 HP amp (Class A packed into CNC milled aluminium enclosure) does the same things. My two cents. 

[spritzer]

Gutsy sound...is that code for distortion and not driving the phones properly?  Seriously though, pop the hood off it and post some detailed internal pics and I'll whip up a clone amp in a few hours.  There are things about the "design" that I truly don't get, why would anybody use single triodes for the input when a dual triode will be better matched and due to being in the same envelope, drift the same.  It's similar to using single fets but a far worse example... 

I used to build amps very similar to these back in the day and people loved them, they even had a volume knob but then again...only cost 1200$... 

[Forza AudioWorks]

3 hours ago, spritzer said:

Gutsy sound...is that code for distortion and not driving the phones properly?  Seriously though, pop the hood off it and post some detailed internal pics and I'll whip up a clone amp in a few hours.  There are things about the "design" that I truly don't get, why would anybody use single triodes for the input when a dual triode will be better matched and due to being in the same envelope, drift the same.  It's similar to using single fets but a far worse example... 

I used to build amps very similar to these back in the day and people loved them, they even had a volume knob but then again...only cost 1200$... 

Not sure about that e-stats amp, but here's 933 from the inside: 

PSU is a different box. In any case, I enjoyed this amp with HD800 and similar cans. It made sense to make them less artificial via Class A and it worked.

Gutsy and authoritative sound, hmm. Not from the headphones realm, but FirstWatt F7.  

[JimL]

6 hours ago, Monya said:

I’m no electronics bod and have no idea if the circuitry is new, old or whatever but experience has taught me that advances don’t necessarily translate into sonic improvements. To me this amp is very musical and makes for long term easy listening which is what I’m after.

If I were living in the States I’d have the BHSE but over here in the UK living within 10 miles of the factory should something go tits up I’m more than happy. I don’t want to be shipping hardware across the pond or Iceland!

5 hours ago, Forza AudioWorks said:

Hardly any surprise there with tuning, all Trilogy stuff sounds quite similar; gutsy and authoritative. These machines are not about speed, clarity and resolution in the first place, but substance and thickness instead. As you've put it, musicality is the focus usually. Their 933 HP amp (Class A packed into CNC milled aluminium enclosure) does the same things. My two cents. 

 

So the major issue I have with the Trilogy is this: given the tube complement, the only possible circuit is the Egmont topology shown in spritzer's post of August 27, above.  This is the simplest, cheapest electrostatic amp circuit around, similar to a circuit that Schiit considered building as a CHEAP electrostatic amp at one point.  As best I can tell from internal pics that have teen posted, the Trilogy doesn't even have output constant current source loads, which make a big difference in drive capability.  congo5 has built two Egmonts, and modified one by substituting constant current source loads for the plate resistors.  He reported that:

"Having two Egmont's I can A/B them to compare.  It is a huge improvement, more volume and much less distortion.  Much more of a usable amp now. Noticeably cleaner bass.  Like Night and Day." 

 

So, an Egmont type circuit would be reasonable for an amp selling for, say, $1000, or 800GBP.  No way is this worth what Trilogy are asking for it.

 

And as far as sound quality, here is a show report from Head-Fi by someone who owns a  KGSS Carbon and SR009:

"Stax 009 + Trilogy Audio Amplifier

This was introduced as a ground up new design with all tube line stage.  It sounded better than the T8000 but not by much.  Nice enough but not excited yet.  I get a wow moment at home on my Carbon.  Not hearing that here.  The soundstage is nothing special.  Looking in the top grill out has 6 tubes set horizontally.  It was not as warm as my Carbon on the case / top.  Think it costs 5K. Nice to see a UK produce, and I wanted to be wowed but not happening.

No USB port so listened to Diana Krall and some Jazz."

 

If you like the sound quality, fine.  But honestly, for the price I think it's a rip-off.  Sorry.

Edited November 11, 2017 by JimL

[Forza AudioWorks]

4 minutes ago, JimL said:

If you like the sound quality, fine.  But honestly, for the price I think it's a rip-off.  Sorry.

All good. I've enjoyed his 933 and 925 is one of the finest integrated amps I've heard thus far. Still, I'm not a fanboy and I pay attention to what people here write in the Trilogy e-stat amp matter. If folks here say that this product isn't worth the asking because of its circuitry, well, not much more I can say as this gives me something to think about.  

I've decided to chime in here only because I know several Trilogy products, hence I quite get what sound characteristic their designer is after and one deck (925) I actually have nearby. 

[Monya]

All fine but I’m guessing that so far I’m the only bloke who has spent some considerable time with it. VFM? TheT8000 is only slightly cheaper but imo not as good. I’m not defending it - each to their own of course but I wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand before listening. It certainly offers a different presentation to the Stax offerings.

[Forza AudioWorks]

18 minutes ago, Monya said:

All fine but I’m guessing that so far I’m the only bloke who has spent some considerable time with it. VFM? TheT8000 is only slightly cheaper but imo not as good. I’m not defending it - each to their own of course but I wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand before listening. It certainly offers a different presentation to the Stax offerings.

I understand people with no trust towards an amp (of any kind) with circuitry known to be on a certain quality level, yet sold for far more. This I really get. 

And having said that, the guys here operate in technical realm neither of us is able to keep up with  

[Monya]

Of course - each to their own likes. I spent a couple of hours last week hoping to buy the Chord Blu/Dave dac combo but try as I did, it just didn’t float my boat despite all the advanced innards.

[wink]

Yep, platinum gear never sounds good to tin ears........   just sayin'....

You still get the peeps who prefer the doof doof bass of the original Beats over the tight sonic signature of a real drum....  

Like what you want, just don't call substandard sonic musical furniture as being high fidelity equipment.

[astatic]

I don't know why Monya needs to appear defensive about going for the Trilogy H1!

I've listened to it back to back against the T8000 and Blue Hawaii and in my opinion it is not bettered by anything I have heard as a partner for the 009.

I have been a Stax  user for eighteen years and have plenty of studio experience so the fact that a clique of electronics buffs don't like it on paper doesn't mean that much.