New Tiny SP

[Tyll Hertsens]

and the people who don't are going to have a hard time figuring it out.

That was actually my concern with your post, people who don't know what's going on are going to jump to conclusions that are ill informed.

I have never had a problem with commercialization.

I know that, but your post would likely not be read that way by many people.

i

was an exhibitor as part of quad electroacoustic at the CES show. I know

more about the politics of that kind of thing than you will ever know.

I don't know about that. How about we settle on the fact that we're both smart guys.

[granodemostasa]

Sorry Tyll, but i think you got it wrong on this one. What many of us are expressing isn't some lack of respect or resentment towards modern production and commercialization in America, but disillusionment with our position as consumers. This is my position: I am a consumer in this hobby, I want my money well spent, I want to have fun with components, and I don't care about sympathizing with amp or headphone or cable or dac makers. Once upon a time for 1700 a person could get an SFT dynamight, it was gorgeous and sounded spectacular. Today that opportunity is passed, the price of gear is rising, the advances in technology are not producing anything better sounding than what we had just two years ago (for the exception of headroom and DIY), and we are seeing a crap shoot about scheduling.

I do sympathize with fellow head-fiers, and I think it sucks that there are more than a handful that have waited months to get updates, fixes and mods done to their amps. Not long ago there was a 4K amp produced that had the R and L channels switched. All the while, we see dozens of new extreme amps being produced, with about 10 for sale at the meet, and new products. While it may be far more complicated than that (and there could be all kinds of legitimate reasons what would point to the two things not related to one another), we do start to wonder what's going on.

I'll admit, Your company is by far the leader in the business side of things among the amp makers, and as time passes, I'm increasingly imagining one of your (or justin's) SS amps next to my tube amp. While i've always wanted a great tube amp, considering the business state of Eddie Current and SP, I am becoming increasingly hesitant to try it.

[n_maher]

I don't know about that. How about we settle on the fact that we're both smart guys.

I think (or at least the way I read it) that Kevin was trying to say that he has more knowledge of the commercialization side of the business than you were previously aware, not that he had superior knowledge in general. But I agree, it's hard to discern from just the words typed on a page.

And I've said it elsewhere on this site but it seems more appropriately placed here so I'll say it again. More and more I see manufacturers (HeadRoom and Headamp NOT included) coming out with new products that are only a detriment to their current offerings. In one case the new amps only serve to further fragment an already small market segment (the high end portables) and in the other case the new products only show currently frustrated customers what has been putting off getting their already-paid-for amps. Neither manufacturer described above seems to suffer from lack of demand so one wonders what their motivation is for their actions. In a third case a well established manufacturer has essentially stopped production of his own designs and decided that it is better to farm all of this out to China in the name of bringing products in at a lower price point (or at least that's how I see it). He's now faced with a glaring example of how easily products are copied and how difficult it is to legally defend his designs. My guess is that had the had the copied design not come from the same country it may never have been discovered at all.

All of this to me it points to the fact that none of them seem to have a long-term lookout for their business which makes me decidedly less likely to invest in one of their products.

[aerius]

Sorry Tyll, but i think you got it wrong on this one. What many of us are expressing isn't some lack of respect or resentment towards modern production and commercialization in America, but disillusionment with our position as consumers. This is my position: I am a consumer in this hobby, I want my money well spent, I want to have fun with components, and I don't care about sympathizing with amp or headphone or cable or dac makers. Once upon a time for 1700 a person could get an SFT dynamight, it was gorgeous and sounded spectacular. Today that opportunity is passed, the price of gear is rising, the advances in technology are not producing anything better sounding than what we had just two years ago (for the exception of headroom and DIY), and we are seeing a crap shoot about scheduling.

I think you're onto something here. It's as if the headphone, and especially the headphone amp industry is moving towards the planned obsolescence model of the computer industry, except unlike computers which keep getting faster and cheaper the headphone amps for the most part just get different and more expensive. Hooray for the free market and unrestrained capitalism, it's almost like manufacturers are trying to spam the market with as many products as they can in the minimum amount of time, gotta keep up with the Jones's and all that.

I can't say I'm surprised though, it happens in many markets once things hit a critical mass and people realize how much money there is to be made. The problem is people are going to get disillusioned and pissed, and that ain't good for the industry in the long run.

[saint.panda]

It's also a matter of respect for your previous customers whether or not to release a product that replaces a previous one that's just a little bit better, if at all, especially if you consider the long lead times for certain amps.

[Tyll Hertsens]

Once upon a time for 1700 a person could get an SFT dynamight, it was gorgeous and sounded spectacular. Today that opportunity is passed, the price of gear is rising, the advances in technology are not producing anything better sounding than what we had just two years ago (for the exception of headroom and DIY), and we are seeing a crap shoot about scheduling.

More and more I see manufacturers (HeadRoom and Headamp NOT included) coming out with new products that are only a detriment to their current offerings. In one case the new amps only serve to further fragment an already small market segment (the high end portables) and in the other case the new products only show currently frustrated customers what has been putting off getting their already-paid-for amps.

Thanks for your comments, guys, I think they're quite accurate.

Initially the market was small. There was me and DIYers (an oversimplification, but bear with me). At that time people griped that my stuff was way to expensive compared to the DIYers. Duh. I had a payroll, ads, health insurance etc to carry and they didn't. But the market grew some. Then some of the DIYers turned pro. As they did, they found that they had to raise prices to cover more real corporate operating costs. But the competition got people interested and the market grew some more. Now, as you so rightly point out, some makers are making models just to make models. They're reacting to the clamor, and they're having a hard time dealing with being dragged around by the nose. Well, they're letting themselves get sucked into it.

But you're right, after all, a headphone amp is a simple thing at its root. How many different kinds of them do you need? Here at HeadRoom we try to keep innovating and adding interesting features to redefine what a headphone amp can do. We now see a headphone amp as more like a desktop pre-amp than as a simple headphone amp. I think my competitors are having a tough time with that because they would have to keep sinking dough into developement to keep up. It's much easier to come out with six flavors of bling rather than to really keep innovating.

Your guys point here is, if I'm reading it right, what good does it do for us to turn up the heat with more promotional activity if the current makers can't keep up? The answer is that if we can get this segment to heat up enough, we will see folks like AR, Krell, etc get interested and then we'll have a race.

I guess my point is that PR opportunities within the headphone community, if they continue to grow, WILL eventually attract exactly the kind of makers that will then be able to do some serious innovation. If the current makers can keep selling cause they convince you of their product value, then they'll be around. But if they can't keep their shit together, they'll die.

So, the problem is not that the headphone amp market players (certainly me in particular) are pushing the PR too hard and fucking things up, but rather that this market has not grown to the size and maturity it needs to sustain people who can afford to do real innovation. The truth is that even our gear, which I would argue is lightyears ahead of most headphone amp makers, is still lock in the technological paradigm of the 80s. No micro controllers, remote controls, switches on the front panels. And, given the size of the market at the moment, I certainly can't afford to speed forward to DSP headphone compensation and HRTF.

I really think you guys should welcome the stress put on the makers by the HeadFest activity as it will shake out the lagards and attract and feed the star performers. The trick is patience. You're not going to fix the problem by making it easier for some makers; you'll fix the problem by making the market so attractive that serious folks will do serious work to get a piece of it. And they (and hopefully me) will simply compete the weak out of the race.

[postjack]

I really think you guys should welcome the stress put on the makers by the HeadFest activity as it will shake out the lagards and attract and feed the star performers. The trick is patience. You're not going to fix the problem by making it easier for some makers; you'll fix the problem by making the market so attractive that serious folks will do serious work to get a piece of it. And they (and hopefully me) will simply compete the weak out of the race.

Some good points made so far. Personally, I would prefer a community where there was only one state-approved headphone amp, manufactured in state-run factories owned by the proletariat. For the people, by the people: and while the streets run red with the blood of the fat capitalist bourgeois pigs, I could enjoy my Socialist Worker's of America Party-approved symphonies on my "Headphone Amplifier One," so named because it is the only (legal) headphone amplifier in existence.

Also Jews and Catholics could not use the amplifier.

But until my dream of a totalitarian communist state comes true, in all its ethnic cleansing glory, I'll just have to do what we do in a free market capitalist society, and vote with my wallet. If I don't like the fact that an amp manufacturer stiffs tons of angry customers by spending time putting research into what to me is the fucking dumbest looking amp I've ever seen, then I don't have to patronize said amp manufacturer. Also I can get on internet forums and make my opinion known.

[Tyll Hertsens]

Personally, I would prefer a community where there was only one state-approved headphone amp, manufactured in state-run factories owned by the proletariat. For the people, by the people: and while the streets run red with the blood of the fat capitalist bourgeois pigs, I could enjoy my Socialist Worker's of America Party-approved symphonies on my "Headphone Amplifier One," so named because it is the only (legal) headphone amplifier in existence.

Sweet! I'll start on the enclosure and laying out the panels. Olive drab with red lettering?

[KenW]

Just a great thread IMO. I hope some of the other headamp manufacturers are reading and learning. It's easy to get caught up in the race to get new products to market. I'm sure the feeling/pressure is to keep up or get left behind. Still, I think it will come down to staying focused on providing a quality product to the customer and above all customer service. That's really what will inspire customer loyalty and in the end, lead to success. Sad to see some fall into the trap of rushing foolish designs to market at the expense of taking care of existing customers, but when others do it and seemingly profit from it, I'm sure it's a hard thing to resist. Here's hoping some of the good guys in this hobby wake up before it's too late.

[Dusty Chalk]

I have to add here, that the tenacity with which those here hold resentment to Jude or Ray or whoever, has, in my view, done this community more harm than good. I'm not perfectly satisfied with what Jude does, but that doesn't stop me from trying to find a meeting of the minds. We've got LOTS of serious problems all over the world because of people holding extreem perspectives that they are unwilling to comprimise or moderate. And, it seems to me, you guys, as a whole, are doing just that.

I disagree. The biggest problem I have with Jude is his complete reluctance to discuss things honestly and openly. He wants to keep the hobby associated with his domain, and he's welcome to keep his domain his domain, but I don't think the whole hobby should belong to him. At least over here, you're welcome to tell us we're tenacious and full of resentment, over there, a post like that would get deleted and possibly get the poster banned. Fuck that. I have no desire to engage the swarm.

The biggest problem I have with Ray is that I haven't heard an amp from him that I like. (Yet, anyway.) And that he can't take even the smallest amount of criticism -- I.E. I can't state the fact that I don't like his amps without him taking it like a personal attack.

[Dusty Chalk]

And another thing -- excuse me if I take things you say, Tyll, with a certain grain of salt. I understand you have to play the diplomat, as you want to continue playing the game, but I don't.

Sorry, that comes across more harshly than is intended, but I don't mince words. I do respect and admire you a great deal. Good luck in your unenviable position, I wish you success.

[justin]

Just a great thread IMO. I hope some of the other headamp manufacturers are reading and learning. It's easy to get caught up in the race to get new products to market. I'm sure the feeling/pressure is to keep up or get left behind. Still, I think it will come down to staying focused on providing a quality product to the customer and above all customer service. That's really what will inspire customer loyalty and in the end, lead to success. Sad to see some fall into the trap of rushing foolish designs to market at the expense of taking care of existing customers, but when others do it and seemingly profit from it, I'm sure it's a hard thing to resist. Here's hoping some of the good guys in this hobby wake up before it's too late.

I know Tyll has always said 5% of his sales come from Head-Fi. But for the "Head-Fi manufacturers" like myself and many others, most of our sales come from Head-Fi. And it's extremely difficult to keep the spotlight on a product on Head-Fi for more than the first few months. From my experience, if my amps are being mentioned somewhere on Page 1 of the amp forum, they'll sell. If not, they won't sell. There doesn't seem to be much in the middle. Maybe this is just the nature of doing business on an internet forum. I think this is what is driving a lot of constant revisions and new models, not manufacturer greed.

[bhd812]

I know Tyll has always said 5% of his sales come from Head-Fi. But for the "Head-Fi manufacturers" like myself and many others, most of our sales come from Head-Fi. And it's extremely difficult to keep the spotlight on a product on Head-Fi for more than the first few months. From my experience, if my amps are being mentioned somewhere on Page 1 of the amp forum, they'll sell. If not, they won't sell. There doesn't seem to be much in the middle. Maybe this is just the nature of doing business on an internet forum. I think this is what is driving a lot of constant revisions and new models, not manufacturer greed.

you need to hire some chicas to be at your table dude..really!

I mean I was by your table this year...I even tried out your GSX..hell I owned one. oye great location for your table this year..yelperS!

[granodemostasa]

I think i can criticize ray's amps to him, and we still talked well after that. I told him exactly what i was hearing between the apache and the B52, it wasnt' subtle at all. He's a great guy to talk to, who knows what was going on with that amp (interference maybe?), and maybe it just isn't good... but he didn't take it personally at all.

[Mastergill]

I know Tyll has always said 5% of his sales come from Head-Fi. But for the "Head-Fi manufacturers" like myself and many others, most of our sales come from Head-Fi.

This i found really annoying since first day i joined Head-Fi. This is why independent discussions are impossible in the Amp forum. This is why you will never see pics of some innards' amp...and so on.

A public forum should not be used as marketing platform. It kills everything and ultimately the forum itself will die. Add to that the strong friendship between some moderators and some "manufacturers" and you can say bye-bye to any 'honest' opinion, or at least opinion that goes against 'mainstream'.

Imagine that kind of stuff on Audio-Asylum!

I don't know how, but this headamp market really need to mature...in fact it's the consumer who need to mature and knows where to put his hard earned money, but how can it be if the information is biased to begin with? With this forum (head-case) maybe? Or with a headphone subforum in AA?

PS: I have nothing against you Justin, amongst the "DIY-ers" who sell through Head-Fi your stuff look the more 'pro' and meticulously finished.

[Tyll Hertsens]

And another thing -- excuse me if I take things you say, Tyll, with a certain grain of salt. I understand you have to play the diplomat, as you want to continue playing the game, but I don't.

No worries, I respect your opinion. I really do understand your frustrations. But I would also like to see bridges built, not burned. And I don't see that happening, and that's sad to me.

I know Tyll has always said 5% of his sales come from Head-Fi. But for the "Head-Fi manufacturers" like myself and many others, most of our sales come from Head-Fi. And it's extremely difficult to keep the spotlight on a product on Head-Fi for more than the first few months. From my experience, if my amps are being mentioned somewhere on Page 1 of the amp forum, they'll sell. If not, they won't sell. There doesn't seem to be much in the middle. Maybe this is just the nature of doing business on an internet forum. I think this is what is driving a lot of constant revisions and new models, not manufacturer greed.

I think that's the nature of business in general: gathering momentum is an ephemeral and difficult challange. To be truly successful you have to make thousands of descisions in dozens of disciplins. Marketing, finanace, emplyees, customer service, management, not to mention product design. And everytime you grow a little and have to leap to the next step (Hiring your first employee, first ad in Stereophile, move out of the basement and rent office space, outsource your first board) you have to redefine everything some to make the model work under the new circumstance. There is no middle, just jumping from one slippery rock to the next.

Getting traction at Head_fi is very difficult because it's just a powerful (in terms of their opinion making power) mob of people. You might get a FOTM buzz, but a long term branded impression? Not so easy. I think HeadRoom doesn't even di it particularly well. I've stuggle for a long time to find a way for us to get a better rap on Head-Fi. In the end, my only conclusion is that we'd have to build better sounding amps. HeadRoom is like the Mercedes (if they hadden't fucked up their brand) of headphone amps. If you want a hot-rod Lamborghini, or DeLorean, or old school Cobra you're really not going to be interested in a Mercedes. But try commuting to work and running errands with the kids in a Maserati. But if you want an all-around, reliable, servicable, amp, ours do that very well. Well, let me tell you, that's a hard sell at Head-Fi, or among any enthusiast croud. But that's my brand and I'm sticking with it. And I think, eventually, that at least half the guys at Head-Fi (once they've got a hot-rod rig they are happy with) will eventually want some HeadRoom gear that they can comfortably take for granted at the office or bedside nightstand.

That's what you have to do, Justin, figure out who you really are and what you really want people to think of HeadAmp as a brand. Then work on that, and NOT on getting FOTM responces. (Not that I think you're doing that at the moment.)

[grawk]

A public forum should not be used as marketing platform. It kills everything and ultimately the forum itself will die. Add to that the strong friendship between some moderators and some "manufacturers" and you can say bye-bye to any 'honest' opinion, or at least opinion that goes against 'mainstream'.

I disagree, I like that the forums are used for marketting. It gets the word out. It's not like there are other places for people who are buying headphone gear to find out what's what. They should just clearly label people as being part of the business, and not allow slander, and everythingn would be dandy.

[grawk]

I have to add here, that the tenacity with which those here hold resentment to Jude or Ray or whoever, has, in my view, done this community more harm than good. I'm not perfectly satisfied with what Jude does, but that doesn't stop me from trying to find a meeting of the minds. We've got LOTS of serious problems all over the world because of people holding extreem perspectives that they are unwilling to comprimise or moderate. And, it seems to me, you guys, as a whole, are doing just that.

I feel, for the most part, that this forum has moved beyond hf bashing. We're discussing the hobby, equipment and music. We even get walk ins. Are there a few people who can't help bash hf? Sure. But I think we've moved on.

[Tyll Hertsens]

Justin, upon reflection I think I should add that I think you've done a pretty good job of making your presence known at Head-Fi. When folks run off a list of makers you're usually on the list. That's a damn good sign. I know I try to keep you on that short list when I refer to other makers, and I think most others do to.

[KenW]

But if you want an all-around, reliable, servicable, amp, ours do that very well. Well, let me tell you, that's a hard sell at Head-Fi, or among any enthusiast croud. But that's my brand and I'm sticking with it. And I think, eventually, that at least half the guys at Head-Fi (once they've got a hot-rod rig they are happy with) will eventually want some HeadRoom gear that they can comfortably take for granted at the office or bedside nightstand.

Tyll, you just described exactly what I'm looking for with those comments. 'Bout time I got some of your gear to listen to!

[thrice]

But if you want an all-around, reliable, servicable, amp, ours do that very well. Well, let me tell you, that's a hard sell at Head-Fi, or among any enthusiast croud.

Perhaps if you used more blue LEDs? Audiophile gear has blue LEDs man....didn't you get the memo?!

[postjack]

I feel, for the most part, that this forum has moved beyond hf bashing. We're discussing the hobby, equipment and music. We even get walk ins. Are there a few people who can't help bash hf? Sure. But I think we've moved on.

I initially came here specifically to bash HF. I was really more mad at myself for being "taken in" by all the happy scrappy fotm BS. But I ended up staying here because when I ask a question, it gets answered by some really, really knowledgable folks, and not by a swarm of fanboys, frothing at the mouth for everyone and anyone to join their "XXX Appreciation Thread" collective:

True, everyone here has their bias as well, but since we are a smaller community, it is easier to know where everybody stands. I post more here now for purely selfish reasons: I just get better advice on how to spend my money.

Plus being able to use profanity is nice. I know thats really immature, but cussing makes me laugh.

[grawk]

Be honest, you post here so I can abuse you for liking post addiction phish

I initially came here specifically to bash HF. I was really more mad at myself for being "taken in" by all the happy scrappy fotm BS. But I ended up staying here because when I ask a question, it gets answered by some really, really knowledgable folks, and not by a swarm of fanboys, frothing at the mouth for everyone and anyone to join their "XXX Appreciation Thread" collective:

True, everyone here has their bias as well, but since we are a smaller community, it is easier to know where everybody stands. I post more here now for purely selfish reasons: I just get better advice on how to spend my money.

Plus being able to use profanity is nice. I know thats really immature, but cussing makes me laugh.

[Mastergill]

I disagree, I like that the forums are used for marketting. It gets the word out. It's not like there are other places for people who are buying headphone gear to find out what's what. They should just clearly label people as being part of the business, and not allow slander, and everythingn would be dandy.

I'm not against manufacturer's contribution or post in a public forum, it's the fact that some exist only thanks to the Head-Fi forum that cause problems IMO. This is pretty unique in the audio hobby in general as far as i know, and it's not good for real, independent opinions.

I guess it's inevitable since it's still a very very small market. But that sucks IMO.

[postjack]

Be honest, you post here so I can abuse you for liking post addiction phish

DUDE THE 97/98 POST-ARENA ROCK FUNK/GROOVE PERIOD IS ESSENTIAL PHISH!

but I also love 80s dead so...