Hifiman Shangri-La, new Electrostatic

[mypasswordis]

I think the idea is that it really, really doesn't matter in life whether your audio playback system sounds better or worse than your previous one, or sounds better or worse than someone else's gear. Once you realize that (like I think a lot of HCers have), you can be totally happy with whatever you already have and not give a fuck about any of the new FOTM sheep hypnotizing stuff. I, for one, certainly don't care if I never hear a Focal or Hifiman (or Abyss or Audeze, etc) in my life.

[wink]

Wisdom comes with age......     sometimes.......

I may like to hear the new toys doing the rounds, but the want/need to acquire the same has diminished with the advancing years.

As usual YMMV.

[catscratch]

Sigh. Let me get out a towel and mop up the puddle of sarcasm at the bottom of my last post. Somebody might slip and fall.

I'm not whining about not being able to afford new shinies. I'm whining about the value proposition of the hobby dropping out as a whole. I suppose it had to happen - headphones were in a bubble of sorts for a while. Manufacturers will jack up the prices as far as the market will bear. It just sucks to see it start to go, that's all.

Edited October 15, 2016 by catscratch

[swt61]

I completely agree.

[wink]

I just hope all top tier headphones cost over US$20,000...

That way I won't have to worry about purchasing any of 'em...... 

[mypasswordis]

 

5 hours ago, catscratch said:

Sigh. Let me get out a towel and mop up the puddle of sarcasm at the bottom of my last post. Somebody might slip and fall.

I'm not whining about not being able to afford new shinies. I'm whining about the value proposition of the hobby dropping out as a whole. I suppose it had to happen - headphones were in a bubble of sorts for a while. Manufacturers will jack up the prices as far as the market will bear. It just sucks to see it start to go, that's all.

I thought I was understanding where you were going, but maybe not.

Now that the Sennheiser HE1 and Hifiman exist, does not all of a sudden make other headphones more expensive or less valuable. You can buy a HD650 (which you said you liked), same as you always could have. The prices of houses in Monaco don't alter your house's valuation. Manufacturers in any industry make new products and charge as much as they can, but that doesn't mean consumers have to buy. A lot of other markets are normalized in that the outrageously priced stuff simply won't be bought and will eventually stop being sold. This is not the case in audio, where people seem to have more money than sense or hearing ability, and smaller attention spans than that of small fish. There always has and always will be the Ray Samuels and Hifimans of the world; it just so happens that in audio people like these have no problem succeeding in the industry. Also, there is no denying the R&D work that is being done on *some* recent headphones in an attempt to actually improve upon the existing aggregate, for example the HD800 and MDR-Z1R. In fact, one could argue that before the HD800 and the explosion of expensive headphones that followed suit (and continue to do so), there was a slump in the high-end market and headphone R&D because manufacturers decided there was not enough demand.

[swt61]

I understand what you're saying Justin, but as an old dude I remember when improved technology escalated in price by regular increments. Jumping from a $600 HD650 to a $1,400 HD800 is quite a leap. I don't think that leap had as much to do with the cost of research as it did with what Sennheiser thought the market would bare. The market did bare that price, so now every new headphone introduced is at a profit margin way above what was once the norm.

[mypasswordis]

Hey Steve, I also get what you mean but just for reference, the Qualia 010 MSRP was $3000+, the R10 was probably around the same, and this is not factoring in inflation. I am sure there are several other expensive headphones that are 20+ years old. So I would argue that it has been the norm, and we're just going through another cycle in history. There's no doubt the profit margin is way higher for some headphones than others.

[Torpedo]

IMHO most people are stupid so the wealthy ones among them pay absurd prices for things not that valuable. Some products, like watches, audio ancillaries, fancy clothes, select spirits and wines, and TOTL cars and whatever have that "exclusivity" consideration so even the not so wealthy come to believe those things are "that" valuable. Only time and common sense put things in perspective and at their proper place. Headphones are far from meeting that common sense spot. Only the experienced, not so stupid and sensible people, have the ability to tell what's the "real value" of something. A whole different thing is being curious and wealthy so you decide to spend an absurd amount of your money to try something.

I'm still curious about how some things would sound, but I'm not as wealthy as to afford trying those at their current prices. This hobby was a lot more fun ten years ago 

[spritzer]

The problem is always that you have to be expensive to be taken seriously.  That applies to everything we humans do as we always associate a higher price with better performance when we have no actual point of reference.  I also think that we've reached the point where manufacturers don't really have to make the call whether they want to sell a few expensive units or a lot more cheaper ones.  They can just charge what ever they want and the sheep follow blindly. 

[Torpedo]

Yes, you're right, Birgir. There's a huge amount of people willing to spend money and it doesn't matter how good you are as a company, you just need to appeal to a few of them to make your living. Again, most of the customers are just lacking any knowledge, experience, sensitivity, sensibility and most likely intelligence. If any market were ruled by pure common sense and sheer quality, most products would have never ever seen the light of the sun.

[mypasswordis]

This thread is inspiring me to sell everything and buy a pair of HD600s to stick it to the man. In theory, anyway. In practice, I'm too lazy to package and ship all that stuff out.

[johnwmclean]

Not being Nostradamus, this could very well be the writing on the wall Hifiman, it’s quite wide exposure, hopefully it will all backfire.

[catscratch]

Valid counter arguments. Another one is that there will be a niche for affordable performance always. If the HD650 goes something will pop up to replace it, because there will always be those looking for maximum value. Of course designing a value product properly and making sure it performs is always going to be hard, and escalating prices will continually redefine the concept of value.

Still, getting into DIY has never been more appropriate.

Edited October 15, 2016 by catscratch

[swt61]

1 hour ago, mypasswordis said:

This thread is inspiring me to sell everything and buy a pair of HD600s to stick it to the man. In theory, anyway. In practice, I'm too lazy to package and ship all that stuff out.

My newish system is an HD580, Torpedo amp and Pico DAC (most provided by Shelly), and I really love this system. It still shocks me at how good it sounds for what is a relatively low cost system. I have no plans to creep upward.

[johnwmclean]

The Sonoma Model One electrostatic headphone system could prove some healthy competition.

[Dave R]

11 hours ago, mypasswordis said:

This thread is inspiring me to sell everything and buy a pair of HD600s to stick it to the man. In theory, anyway. In practice, I'm too lazy to package and ship all that stuff out.

I have a pair of HD-600's which are driven by a Mjolnir Dynalo mk1 I got from Birgir, and although I find not to the same SQ level as my 009/BHSE, that 600 combo still sounds extremely good, and a bargain for what they cost me, having said that I do use a silver custom cable with those 600's which I find has improved the SQ to that from the Senn stock cable.

As for the Shangri-La, not interested one bit, although I might audition the Utopia at sometime.

[wink]

Audition is good.

Purchase is expensive.

[HemiSam]

Ditto on a dynalo plus paired with the Senn's but mine are 650's as I prefer a warmer sound sig.  You can get great value for money if that is one's preference.

There is no arguing the headphone market has heated up, but that was inevitable with the advent of the cellular phone, higher capacity memory and growing streaming options.  Shit happens...

HS

[purk]

Speaking of a really good value for the money, a used Oppo HA-1 is very tough to beat.

[Iron_Dreamer]

33 minutes ago, purk said:

Speaking of a really good value for the money, a used Oppo HA-1 is very tough to beat.

Really? I've only ever heard one connected to a BHSE/009 system, and I thought something was broken. Soundstage was completely collapsed.

[purk]

6 minutes ago, Iron_Dreamer said:

Really? I've only ever heard one connected to a BHSE/009 system, and I thought something was broken. Soundstage was completely collapsed.

I don't think it works well with the BHSE/009 system due to the three having slightly brighter tonal balanced by themselves.  Plus I use an upgraded DIY USB cable on mine and it did a world of good on the Oppo HA-1.  

Edited October 16, 2016 by purk

[DonkeyBalls]

2 hours ago, purk said:

Speaking of a really good value for the money, a used Oppo HA-1 is very tough to beat.

My audio buddy just sold his for a V281. I found the Oppo to be bright, harsh and generally nasty sounding. Not something I would ever recommend. YMMV.

[Dave R]

18 hours ago, wink said:

Audition is good.

Purchase is expensive.

I've seen the Utopia in the UK priced at £3250, so with me already having 009's, auditioning those Focals is all I would do.

[purk]

6 hours ago, DonkeyBalls said:

My audio buddy just sold his for a V281. I found the Oppo to be bright, harsh and generally nasty sounding. Not something I would ever recommend. YMMV.

Yes, I agree with this in a stock form....but I did improve it with some DIY USB cable and I can easily can live with it now.  In this case, it is true that YMMV.