Beta 22 Question

[dreamwhisper]

Is a gain of 5 too much for Audio-Technica W3000Anv?

[nikongod]

Maybe. 

Is gain of 5 too much with the amp you have now? Gain is gain. 

 

Odds are good the answer is yes, even if you dont think so. 

Very few dynamic headphones need anything more than gain of 2 with a standard 1-2v source, and that is being very generous to the camp of people who think you actually need voltage gain at all (you don't). Since not all amps are stable at gain of 2, lets compromise and go for 3. Yes, 3. Three is a good number. It is prime. And round. And it looks like an "E" backwards. I like the number 3. In addition to being a good number, it is also the largest number that voltage gain for conventional dynamic headphone amps should be.

Edited October 10, 2014 by nikongod

[nopants]

2 is also prime ari don't spread misinformation

[n_maher]

Maybe. 

Is gain of 5 too much with the amp you have now? Gain is gain. 

 

Odds are good the answer is yes, even if you dont think so. 

Very few dynamic headphones need anything more than gain of 2 with a standard 1-2v source, and that is being very generous to the camp of people who think you actually need voltage gain at all (you don't). Since not all amps are stable at gain of 2, lets compromise and go for 3. Yes, 3. Three is a good number. It is prime. And round. And it looks like an "E" backwards. I like the number 3. In addition to being a good number, it is also the largest number that voltage gain for conventional dynamic headphone amps should be.

 

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

In all seriousness, forget whether or not that's a good gain # for a beta²² but rather is that the amp that you really want to buy/build.  At this point I've simply seen way too many of them fail that I'd want to know if they were modified in accordance with amb's recommendations before even considering the amplifier as a platform. 

[nikongod]

2 is also the only even prime number and accordingly much cooler than 3. 2 will still never be as cool as 12 though.

 

3 is a compromise for stability's sake. 

[nopants]

yeah I'm just being a dipshit, but why do people keep defaulting to the b22 anyway? it seems pretty expensive for the end result. the more I hear it with the hd800 the less impressed I am

[RudeWolf]

Is a gain of 5 too much for Audio-Technica W3000Anv?

 

Depends, how hot the signal is.

 

 

yeah I'm just being a dipshit, but why do people keep defaulting to the b22 anyway? it seems pretty expensive for the end result. the more I hear it with the hd800 the less impressed I am

 

Old glory, most likely. Then again - it's either that or the Dynahi, right?

[dreamwhisper]

Well, I've owned it before and I liked what it sounded like. But ya, pretty much old glory.  

I'd be buying it from someone who built one on the other site, but we'll see if he feels like changing the gain though.

[RudeWolf]

I've heard the Beta22 with the Buffalo III being the source. Pretty much the most textbookish "endgame" DIY setup from back in the day you could find. Sounded very bright and brittle even on the HD650. I appreciate the technicalities, but couldn't live with a sound like that. Also the Beta22 is very sensitive to output shorting - I'd recommend using XLR's if you can.

 

I found my sound in Sjostrom amps. Feels like I'm shilling for the guy whenever I can.

[postjack]

When I had my beta and w3000anv i ran it with a gain of 3. it was fine.

 

when i sold the beta, which was a really beautiful build by naamanf, it had been up for sale at HF for 8 months. I bought it for $1000 which was a screaming deal and ended up selling it for $700. Sold it to some no feedback hardly any posts guy from texas. Took a risk but it was a perfect sale.

 

Buyer: I want this

Me: Here's my paypal

/rcv paypal payment

/ship amp

/never heard from buyer again

 

awesome.

 

anyway I'm not one to be concerned about resale value but I was just surprised at how much the beta seems to have fallen in popularity. People were losing their goddamn minds over this thing 3-4 years ago.

[dreamwhisper]

Yeah I had a Beta 22 with HD650's and a Lavry DA10. The Lavry's shortcomings aside, I agree with the description brittle.

The other amp I have my eyes on is the Lehmann BCL.
Partly because i like the idea of buying a cheap clone to add parts and compare to the original. Decent way to learn more about DIY.

postjack, did you sell your W3000Anv for an HD800?

Edited October 10, 2014 by dreamwhisper

[postjack]

Yeah I had a Beta 22 with HD650's and a Lavry DA10. The Lavry's shortcomings aside, I agree with the description brittle.

The other amp I have my eyes on is the Lehmann BCL.

Partly because i like the idea of buying a cheap clone to add parts and compare to the original. Decent way to learn more about DIY.

postjack, did you sell your W3000Anv for an HD800?

 

I can't remember if I sold the W3000ANV before or after I bought the HD800. Its a really good looking phone and felt great on my head but I just never clicked with the AT sound.

[nikongod]

I think the O2 took a lot of the B22's spotlight. 

 

Very few people seemed to build the B22 for speakers, which left it as an amp with measurements too good to have any soul (like a tube amp) but not as good as the o2... 

 

If you are interested in DIY, comfy wiring mains stuff, and building in general check out the CCKiii if you are thinking about a BCL clone. Very different, but at the same time quite under appreciated.

[nopants]

I haven't heard the O2, is it actually a good amplifier? I can't imagine nwavguy knowing enough about class B amplification to make it sound good.

 

I think the M3 is supposed to be similar to the BCL, but that was just a glance...if I owned dynamic headphones I'd probably get some boards made for the new dynalo. Personal preference

[nikongod]

The BCL is unusual because the output buffer is NOT nested in the global feedback loop. 

After that, it is closer to a PPA buffer than an M3. 

 

http://cdn.head-fi.org/8/87/87579c0c_lovelycubecircuit01.jpg

 

PPA buffer is nicer, and if one were so motivated they *could* convert the PPA pretty easily. Leave out R4, jumper R3, and set gain with R5&R6.

 

The O2 is just off-the-shelf op amps. Not really much for the designer to worry about with class AB. The JRC4556 is actually pretty nice (as far as op amps goes) for driving headphones directly. Its not the amp that people dont like, its that his fanboys came around and said "this is right, and things that dont even begin to operate under the same principles are wrong." There is certainly a place for the O2, but there needs to be a fight so that people can still design things and learn for themselves. 

[DefQon]

I wouldn't exactly call the b22's sound brittle, neutralish bright, yes when paired with something like the HD800's but certainly not brittle sounding. IME besides the Mojo the b22 drives the LCD2's (regardless of revision) and LCD3's superbly.

 

But I guess the build and source comes into place as well.

[Torpedo]

Yup, the B22 pairs very well with the LCD-2, effortless slamming sound. Surprisingly (for the bright part of its sound) with the Grados pairs very well too. And with the Fostex T30 too, OMG!

[dreamwhisper]

I ended up getting a Headamp GS-1. Not hating it.
Cymbals are so splashy now... what is this lol

I can't really imagine listening to anything other than Alternative Rock and Acid Jazz on these headphones though.
I guess that works out ok.
Part of me misses the obscure cloudy mess that these headphones were with the op amp Project Polaris before this.
Not as clear, but the vocals were way sweeter. It feels like the whole headphone is flatter now, not emphasised in mids and bass.
Since they're coloured headphones I haven't decided if this is ideal.

What a beast of an amp though, Easily one of the best amps I've ever heard. Why did he stop making these??!
 

Edited October 29, 2014 by dreamwhisper

[spritzer]

The GS-1 wasn't cool or had insane fanboys shilling it so it wasn't selling.  Goes to show that people in general are idiots...

[shellylh]

^That sucks.  It is an awesome amp.  Glad I never sold mine.  

[tkam]

I kinda want to buy a GS-1 or M3 now.

[Audiojunkie]

I kinda want to buy a GS-1 or M3 now.

 

I used to own a GS-1 and absolutely loved it! I would miss it more if I didn't already own a GS-X Mk2. 

[postjack]

Missing out on the GS-1 that dreamwhisper ended up getting is what made me buy the HA-1. Got tired of waiting around for a good solid state headphone amp.

[dreamwhisper]

What's the word on powering two headphones at once?

One side pops a bit when you put another one in. Is this something to be concerned about?

Also, as an update, I liked the W3000Anv better with a less transparent amp ultimately. 
With the GS-1 the headphones are powered to their full potential, but this meant the colouration also was highlighted too much for my taste, even if the result was holographic bass/mids. 
(something I haven't seen in another ATH woodie)
The sound on a weaker amp was distant/farther away, and this presentation suited the W3000Anv better, even though it sounded mid-fi.

The HD800 absolutely loves the power and intensity of the GS-1 though.
I use it a lot with movies and drum and bass music, some other electronica. The imaging is amazing.

I'm planning on getting a W11jpn in the future. I know it works well with the Dynalo anyways since I've owned a W11jpn with a G-lite before.
Not expecting too much of a difference, but this may be something I could roll amp modules for if the + modules are too much for it.

[n_maher]

Depending on when this beta was built and how the output is configured I'd first start by saying that you should never hot swap or plug in headphones on a beta²².  That's a good way to release the magic smoke and render the amp useless.  Unless you're talking about an amp configured with a connector other than the usual 1/4" TRS jack.  That jack causes a momentary short on the output when plugging/unplugging headphones that has been known to cause major issues.

 

That said, there should really be an issue powering two headphones at once off of the beta, just that if the sensitivities/load are significantly different it may be difficult or impossible to find a happy listening volume.