Death By Carbs - Bread and Dough Making

[Edwood]

So I have a Zojirushi BB-PAC20 Home Bakery Virtuoso Breadmaker on it's way to me.  (Damn UPS and their unexplained delays, won't get it until Tuesday, May 27 now)

 

Really want to get into making real Sourdough, including making / maintaining a Starter culture.

 

Should I go for it and make a wild yeast sourdough starter from scratch with just flour and water, or get a starter elsewhere as a seed?

 

Was thinking of this one, I can appreciate the irony of this guy's name.

http://www.sourdo.com/cultures/original-san-francisco/

 

Anyone else into making their own bread, the hands on way and the higher tech lazy way like I'm going to do?

[grawk]

https://www.etsy.com/listing/185111657/100-plus-year-old-alaskan-sourdough?ref=related-1

 

Alaskan Sourdough is pretty fantastic...I miss it.  I'd get some myself except that half my family isn't eating wheat.

[Edwood]

Fortunately, no Celiac Disease in my family, so we can have all the gluten we want.

 

Just that pesky diabetes thing lurking in the background.  We don't eat bread all the time, but would like quality over quantity.

[Hopstretch]

Just visiting this thread the once to get a big whiff of the peerless smell of baking bread.

 

Now, farewell forever.

[Edwood]

Too lazy to knead shit by hand, hence why I got a bread machine.  Also, I don't have a stand mixer anyways.  Maybe I'll make some dough by hand, especially if I'm going to bake some sourdough country style loaves in my grill.  But most of the time I plan to be a lazy batard.

 

I'd at least like to have control, over the ingredients in my bread.

 

Decided to branch out into bread, as I'm already a master of my meat.    Oh wait, that sounds to rightfully wrong...

Edited May 25, 2014 by Edwood

[Edwood]

https://www.etsy.com/listing/185111657/100-plus-year-old-alaskan-sourdough?ref=related-1

 

Alaskan Sourdough is pretty fantastic...I miss it.  I'd get some myself except that half my family isn't eating wheat.

 

How would you describe the taste of Akaskan Sourdough compared to San Francisco?

 

If it turns out well, I might have to bring the bread machine and starter cultures to MOA4 along with the pork debauchery.  DEATH BY MEAT AND BREAD!!!!!!!

[grawk]

I haven't had an alaskan sourdough since I left alaska 8 years ago, and it's been longer since I've had a real SF sourdough.  But nothing beats alaskan sourdough pancakes.

[swt61]

Sourdough changes greatly in it's first 25 years. In Alaska sourdough starter over 50 yrs. old is coveted, and some are over 100 yrs. The differences after 50 yrs. are more subtle, but a new starter compared to a 25 or 50 y.o. starter is no comparison. You will be much happier with as old a starter as you can get your hands on.

 

Fortunately for you, my Mom started her starter the same year I was born, so 53 yrs. now, and I will be happy to donate to your new hobby. 

 

Alaskan sourdough is used more for cinnamon rolls, pancakes and such, but also makes fantastic bread. My favorite bread is AK. salt crusted, Rosemary, sourdough. 

 

My Aunt uses her starter (from my Mom) to make really good muffins. But my Mom has a sourdough pancake recipe that will make you think your tastebuds turned into clitoris'. Our family has deemed it illegal to use anything but the best grade of true Maple syrup with them, so keep this in mind if you should want the recipe.

 

P.S. While the starters listed in those links are old, it's not the same as a starter that's been in wet form from the beginning. Trust me on this!

Edited May 25, 2014 by swt61

[spritzer]

No starter is that old, all the germs have long since been replaced by what ever is in the environment.  That's why there is no way to move a specific germ from its local such as the one found in San Francisco.  It can't grow anywhere else artificially unless you'd use lab grade environment.  We can buy specific starters which are made in various places but they will last two weeks max, then enough of the germs have been replaced so it isn't original. 

[Wmcmanus]

Just visiting this thread the once to get a big whiff of the peerless smell of baking bread.

 

Now, farewell forever.

 

Sigh... me too.

[Tyll Hertsens]

Spent a year trying to make good bread.

 

Alas to no avail.

 

Jacob is wize...much of "the trick" is in the shit you bake it on and in.

[Edwood]

I do have a charcoal grill with thick pizza stone and a automatic temperature controller.   Closest thing I can get to wood fire oven. 

Edited May 25, 2014 by Edwood

[mikeymad]

I have been playing with my own wild starter for several months now. And I have really liked the results. I just do a basic starter (water flower) and feed it and work it. It is down to just taking care of it (feeding) several times a week. 

 

I used a basic technique from Chad Robertson of Tartine (the best bread I have ever had).

 

You can Look Inside on Amazon - http://www.amazon.com/Tartine-Bread-Chad-Robertson/dp/0811870413

 

And the basics of making a starter are available on page 45. It can be fun, but the trick is to listen to what the bugs want. 

 

I have not tried any other yeast (bought). I really wanted the dough to express what is right here. 

[Edwood]

Yeah, I read about how any starter imported will eventually turn into local wild yeast. 

[Edwood]

No starter is that old, all the germs have long since been replaced by what ever is in the environment.  That's why there is no way to move a specific germ from its local such as the one found in San Francisco.  It can't grow anywhere else artificially unless you'd use lab

grade environment.  We can buy specific starters which are made in various places but they will last two weeks max, then enough of the germs have been replaced so it isn't original. 

 

Now you're having me thinking of creating a sealed controlled filtered environment.    Although my wife will kill me if I go that far for yeast.

[Tyll Hertsens]

Now you're having me thinking of creating a sealed controlled filtered environment.    Although my wife will kill me if I go that far for yeast.

 

You'll kill yourself if you fart...'course, wouldn't want that to get into the starter either, so you're good.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Tyll Hertsens

[Sherwood]

I've been making everything from this book for the last year, and I love it.  Skip the poncy intro, and don't worry overmuch about ingredients, but do worry about tools.  Cambio mix tubs, a good kitchen scale, and either a baking steel (for pizza and focaccia) or a cast iron dutch over (enameled or not, for larger 'boule'-style loaves.)  I have not baked baguettes yet, as I don't have the kit for it.  My loaves are killer, though, as are my pizzas, rolls, focaccias, etc.  I've made decent pretzels out of this dough (and a lye bath) but I can't readily tell them apart from pretzels that have only risen for 1-2 hours.  

 

I have a starter that apparently lives off the mercury vapor and tin shavings we breathe here in Beijing.  Followed the guide in the book to get it going from nothing, and feel like that's a fine way to go unless you inherit a starter.  

 

The only downside is that this process is not friendly to bread machines, Edwood.  My post is mostly for the benefit of other by-hand bakers.

 

Of course, no one here has the baking chops of Iceland's baker laureate, the creator of the skyr cake, and wielder of the electrostatic hammer of the Gods, Birgir þor Gudjonsson.

[Filburt]

I have a smaller model from Zojirushi that I received as a gift recently. So far, my bread has come out really nicely. I'd love to try sourdough, but I don't know much about how to make that one happen successfully at the moment. On another note, sourdough pancakes sounds amazing.

 

Steve - very interesting info re: starters! I'd not heard that before.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Filburt

[Edwood]

Bread Machine finally arrived.  Gave it a test run making the easiest generic white bread.

 

 

 

Quite decent.  Basically a huge dinner roll.  It makes for a perfect alternative to wonder bread for sandwiches.  This Zojirushi Bread machine is extremely easy to use. 

 

The No-Knead Bread method via Dutch Oven sounds interesting.  My oven is kaput, and was a piece of shit electric oven.  No gas.  So other alternative is to use my grill. 

 http://www.seriouseats.com/2011/06/the-food-lab-the-science-of-no-knead-dough.html

[n_maher]

Ed,

 

I use a very basic bread machine to make homemade bread rolls quite frequently and the only thing I do differently from your loaf above is that I cook it in the over.  Yes, a shitty electric whatever-came-with-the-house model but otherwise you get the hole in the bottom of loaf sydrome which drives me crazy (from the mixer).  I'm assuming your machine has a dough cycle and that's the only thing I ever use on mine.  I can share a basic, but good, wheat bread recipe if you want which is pretty much go-to for bread and dinner rolls.

[spritzer]

The basic recipe for white bread would be something like this:

 

1L water

1900gr flour

30 gr salt

50 gr yeast

 

The flour should be type 550 but if you use something stronger (i.e. most US grown flour) then use a bit less.  Flour is hard to pin down when it comes to exact proportions as it does change quite a bit so some experimentation is needed.  The yeast is bakers years which comes in bricks so any dried variety you would need less of it.  You can also add 50gr of butter to the above recipe for a better, smoother crust and and denser foam structure.  Water temperature depends on what you are going to do with the dough.  We use cold water plus ice chips for anything being frozen and up to 30°C for rye bread where more than half the liquid has already been mixed the day before.  Never go over that though as you raise the temp of the dough by kneading it and you will have problems as you approach 32°C. 

 

For wholewheat the same recipe works just fine, just mix flour and wholewheat so for instance 1/3 wholewheat against 2/3 flour.  You can go to 50/50 but then you get into trouble. 

 

Edit:  Forgot about the mixing.  Our pro machines operate at two speeds so for something like this we'd say 5-2 which means 5 minutes on low gear and 2 minutes on high gear.  This does vary between machines and flour though so it's hard to pin down. 

 

One more thing, never add sugar to bread at least not sucrose.  It just ruins the crust and makes the yeast go a bit nuts.  This is fine for sweets but for bread it's best to just give the dough time to mature and let the yeast break down the flour.  This means more maltose and a better taste. 

Edited May 28, 2014 by spritzer

[Edwood]

Ed,

 

I use a very basic bread machine to make homemade bread rolls quite frequently and the only thing I do differently from your loaf above is that I cook it in the over.  Yes, a shitty electric whatever-came-with-the-house model but otherwise you get the hole in the bottom of loaf sydrome which drives me crazy (from the mixer).  I'm assuming your machine has a dough cycle and that's the only thing I ever use on mine.  I can share a basic, but good, wheat bread recipe if you want which is pretty much go-to for bread and dinner rolls.

 

The paddles in the bottom are really small and low profile in my btead machine, they make small slots in the bottom.   It's not enough to bug me for their convenience. 

 

I've heard about people using standard 9x5 loaf pans just resting on the bottom of my Zojirushi with good results.   It works well since this one has top heating elements. 

[Edwood]

Here's a pic of the cross section of the biggest the hole / slot gets with my Bread Maker.  Not too bad.  I don't bother removing the paddles at all after the kneading and rest stages.

 

Edited May 29, 2014 by Edwood

[Edwood]

So, my first attempt to make wild yeast sourdough starter ended up making wild penicillin. 

[acidbasement]

This is a breadmaker recipe, but we make it without the breadmaker. The large size will do two small loaves. It's very tasty as a dessert bread. Bake at 350.