Studio monitor audition went poorly, suggestions?

[Audio Jester]

I have been looking for some small active speakers for my room so I did a whole lot of research and ended up auditioning studio monitors at a local store.

I listened to the following:

Adam A5x,A7x

JBL LSR2325P

Presonus Eris E8

Yamaha HS7

Neumann KH120

... And I didn't like them. I tried moving around the test room, aligning my ears to the tweeters, various types of music (including some tracks I know well), nothing seemed to work. I found this really frustrating as I had read over and over again that studio monitors should present an accurate sound and have a linear frequency response. The most convincing to me was the Neumann KH120, but I just didn't like the overall sound enough. None of them reproduced the piano on my test track to the degree of realism I would have expected. Low mids and bass were an issue with many (contrary to many reviews that spoke of huge bass coming from these speakers). I just didn't find any of them very engaging.

I think this means that I need to look into bookshelf speakers that offer a more hifi/euphonic/inaccurate(?) response or is there a reasonable explanation for all these monitors sounding like they are missing chunks of the frequency spectrum? I personally don't know anything about music production, but the gear the guy was using to demo these speakers looked pretty impressive.

Has anyone else found a large difference in sound signature between bookshelf speakers and studio monitors?

I have read so many positive reviews for these speakers, so obviously I am missing something here. Thoughts?

[grawk]

you're not going to find a speaker with a 6" driver that will reproduce a piano accurately.  The best you can hope for is accurate timbre in the range of sound it's capable of reproducing.  

[RudeWolf]

Basically what Grawk said - near field monitors shouldn't be expected to have significant output below 100Hz. Some have an FR hump at around 200Hz for more apparent "kick", but you won't get the physical feedback that floorstanders can provide. Monitors should excel at imaging, soundstage and neutral FR. Extra bass can be had by carefully implementing a subwoofer, however that is prone to excite many room related issues.

 

For piano a good 8 incher should do the trick.

[Voltron]

JH16

[dreamwhisper]

Yeah you need 8 inch drivers to get the lower mids in my experience.

Good monitors and sound treated room are used for the mastering process, but most people just get by with budget monitors or headphones for production and the typical all-in-one musicianship you see nowadays.
As far as I can tell the design philosophy leans towards MDF and away from real wood to avoid unwanted resonance. What you want to hear is directly from the speakers, often without the subwoofer in the signal chain, hence the need for a treated room.

Basically though, high detail retrieval, and variable crossover between the Satelites and the Subwoofer are what set it apart from Bookshelf speakers or your everyday consumer speaker. These aren't mutualy exclusive ideas.

I've never understood consumer speakers. There's some really nice 2.1 systems for around the 10k price point used at music festivals etc.
I mean if your goal is to resonate the living room/listening room, why not get like a 15" subwoofer or whatever. haha
Most people just don't want it to be loud enough to play music for their neighbours though.
 

Edited May 11, 2014 by dreamwhisper

[ironbut]

Consumer speakers are meant to sound beautiful. What beautiful is,.. is in the eye of the designer. But, you won't sell a lot of your speakers if somebodies test cd is shrill and boomy in some environments so a lot of attention is paid to making it sound reasonably good at the extremes regardless of the room treatment.

 

Studio near/mid field monitors are not designed to sound good. They are designed as tools for tracking and mixing (not mastering!). They can be accurate to a fault.

Just an example,

Most folks hate sibilance. But reducing sibilance can roll off highs and make the recording sound dull.

Finding the right balance is the mixer's job.  To do a good job of it, he's got to hear that irritating stuff clearly.

Regarding the lack of bass, if you're reading review of monitors on pro audio sites, everyone there knows that you can't expect most nearfields to go down much below 50Hz. But, they also know that there isn't a whole lot below there on most recordings. So once they've gotten the bass and the kick (organ if it's there) to play nice with each other, everything else is well above 50.

All mixers have some way to check those lower frequencies though (headphones, switchable sub etc).

The bottom line for monitors for mixing and tracking is, since no monitor/setup is perfect, you need to know that system. What does it lack and what freq bumps does it have.

 

That said, all the above does not mean that the monitors can't sound great for casual listening, it just means that when you read a review over on Gearslutz or Sound on Sound, "great" may have a very different meaning that what you might think.

 

Monitors for mastering are a whole different thing. They need to be full range and often have subs.

They are never nearfields and can extend far beyond midfield.

They are often some very high priced audiophile speakers with room acoustics and amplification as perfect as possible. How much $$$ is spent in this pursuit depends on their target audience.

Almost all mastering rooms are set up by master acousticians.

And even though these guys usually have the best ears in the business, learning the sound of their room is critical.

[Dreadhead]

Learning a lot on this thread. I am thinking of getting a Genelec DSP monitor setup with sub and their autocalibration suite. I would start with sub and stereo then add other channels later. I guess I want 8250A for mains. Big enough?

[swt61]

I heard the 8250A at plaidplatypus' house in San Antonio some years back. I was very impressed.

 

With the Genelec sub I have no doubt you'd be happy with them.

Edited May 11, 2014 by swt61

[ironbut]

One of the great things about Genelec is the wide range of models.

It depends a lot on the size of the room you're going to use them in.

The studio I'm doing some work in right now has 5 of the 8050's plus a single driver sub.

The control room they're in is about the size of a small living room (like an apartment).

I just use the stereo pair with the sub and I think that it might be better with slightly smaller main speakers but it's hard to tell without trying.

 

You should try and get a demo set up. Folks do that all the time.

Just contact Genelec sales and ask who to contact.

 

BTW, I think they sound great!

[dreamwhisper]

 

They are designed as tools for tracking and mixing (not mastering!).

They only really need to be used for mastering in this day and age.

Most people have 1 mic, a guitar and a laptop. They do all their work on headphones.

I'm talking young musicians on a budget.

The only time you need to see a studio is to do the final mix. Even then it pays to know how the speakers relate to your real world test market, like how will this sound on radios, where there isn't base reproduction, or laptops, same consideration. etc..

So even then studio monitors aren't even 100% useful for everyone.

Just giving some perspective on the type of people these lower range monitors (6' midrange drivers) are being marketed to.

There are diy musicians that cut out the middle man and his studio. And make their own name for themselves.

The lower range stuff isn't gonna sound as good but will look flashy is my point.

 

Edited May 11, 2014 by dreamwhisper

[Dusty Chalk]

I was just listening to a pair of ATCs the other day that reproduced piano fantastically.

Sent from mah phone-blet via Tapatalk

[Dusty Chalk]

Also KRK VXT8s with sub.

Sent from mah phone-blet via Tapatalk

[grawk]

I've never heard a set of KRKs I thought got tone right at all.  As to the ATCs, well...

 

And "most" bands being 1 guy with a mic and a guitar is kind of irrelevant when discussing studio work.

[Grand Enigma]

This beards and hats exclusive line looks interesting...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/970955-REG/senal_asm_4_4_2_way_active_studio.html

[dreamwhisper]

Ok sorry.

I live in a small town with a music college and the only way we can really attract customers is advertising for mastering.
We've recorded like 3 bands ever using all 24 channels, and other than that a handful of solo guitarists.
Most people in our area being electronic musicians doesn't really help the production side of things.

It's probably a lot better in a bigger city hah.

Edited May 11, 2014 by dreamwhisper

[padam]

I like the Genelecs as well but they need to be set up the right way with the appropriate angle and distance from the walls.

Wall reflections in a small room can present problems and using bigger ones cures it somewhat because they are more directional than the small ones.

 

And of course they can sound quite different depending on the DAC used.

[ironbut]

I guess overall, I'm probably not the best guy to be commenting on monitors.

I've listened to a lot of 'em but I can't honestly say I loved any of them.

On the other hand, I Love my Maggie 1.6qr's (with the custom x-overs I built) hooked up to my big ass CJ amp.

That thing just sends me to heaven and time goes out the window.

Nearfield monitors are either right or there's something that bugs me about them.

(BTW I use Dynaudio BM5mkll with a BM9 sub in my home studio with a few bass traps and portable diffusers.)

[Audio Jester]

My previous desktop speakers were Swan m200 mk3's so I was expecting that these studio monitors would be much better, but I enjoy the sound of the Swans more. I'm not saying that they are more detailed or transparent, but the Swans had a decent amount of bass to them and presented a fuller sound overall.

I am reluctant to get a sub because I live in a share house and sub-bass is not going to be well received by others.

I have a very small room currently, so space is an issue, but I am happy to sacrifice accurate imaging for something that can deliver a broader frequency response at lower volumes.

I have read good things about the Dynaudio 160, but they are in a completely different price bracket. Does anyone have any suggestions? If I can keep the system below $3000 and fit it in my 3x3m room i'm all ears.

[Dusty Chalk]

I've never heard a set of KRKs I thought got tone right at all.  As to the ATCs, well...

 

 

If you're talking about the Rokits, you're talking about an entirely different animal.  The VXT8's that I hear all the time sound fantastic.  I'll ask to have him play a piano recording I'm familiar with the next time I'm over there, but I trust his ears above yours.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[grawk]

you're not going to find a speaker with a 6" driver that will reproduce a piano accurately. The best you can hope for is accurate timbre in the range of sound it's capable of reproducing.

anyway dusty, see the context.

[ironbut]

Funny, I also have a pair of the Swans M200's.

I use those when I'm at gatherings away from home and I'm in charge of the music (which is always!).

I agree, very enjoyable sound signature. I've had a few folks buy them after hearing mine.

But accurate they ain't.

 

And yes, my house is full of audio stuff (and just getting worser).

[Dusty Chalk]

Dan, you're right, I missed that.
 

Still seemed like an overgeneralization.

you're not going to find a speaker with a 6" driver that will reproduce a piano accurately.  The best you can hope for is accurate timbre in the range of sound it's capable of reproducing.  

Completely agree with this and ironbut's statements (and others) -- and disagree with the prejudice against a 2.1 system -- they're quite a common way of monitoring, and many custom installations for mastering basically separate all the elements.  And I don't think bookshelf speakers are going to fare any better.  I don't care how close you listen to 6 inch woofers in any enclosure, you're just not going to get that low frequency reproduction.  You should do the same thing with bookshelf speakers as you did with studio monitors, you'll hear for yourself.

That said, the Dynaudio BM5A's have 7 inch woofers and are said to go down to ~45 Hz or so, so that (7 inch woofers) might be a decent compromise, for non-organ or techno music.  (The low E on an electric bass guitar is approximately 41 Hz.)  And the 8 inch woofer in the Dynaudio Special 25 is certainly adequate without a sub for most pleasurable listening (although it has a slight midrange suckout that someone who's picky about acoustic piano reproduction might continue to have issue with), but now we're getting back into the category of "pretty big for a desktop" category, so I imagine any speaker with an 8 inch woofer in a decent enclosure is going to have size problems.

[Dusty Chalk]

And somehow I missed this post, too:

I am reluctant to get a sub because I live in a share house and sub-bass is not going to be well received by others.

Okay, understood, but don't mistake a subwoofer for "movie sound" -- if used in a musical context, it doesn't have to be bad -- I used a Sunfire True Sub Jr. with some nice Spendor bookshelves (Wharfedales will do in a pinch) without anyone ever being the wiser.  Just don't turn it up -- movie sound usually means the sub is cranked up a notch, but I prefer it "even" with the speakers and phase-tuned.  Don't think of it as a 2.1 system -- think of it as two 3-way speakers with the speakers sharing the woofer.  I mean, think about it -- if the bass frequencies came from full-range speakers, or if they came from a sub, if they're the same level, your room-mates should be just as annoyed (or not annoyed, as the case may be), neh?

That said, everything ironbut said about monitors being accurate vs. home stereo speakers being euphonic is generally true, so even though I disagree with how you came to that conclusion, I do agree you're probably better off buying home speakers for pleasurable listening.  There's also "powered speakers" like the KEF X300A, which are designed for pleasurable listening rather than monitoring, although they may not go deep enough based on previous discussion.  There's also the Quad 12L actives.

On paper, those Dynaudios should be fine.  I'm a big fan of Dynaudio.

[Audio Jester]

Thanks for the input everyone! I think it is back to the drawing board for me, but you've given me some direction which is bound to help. Cheers!

[grawk]

just go balls deep and get the ATC 150s