At what point will it be reasonable to arm our teachers to protect students?

[The Expanding Man]

My home country experienced a mass shooting in 1996, the Port Arthur Massacre.

The government response was to legislate to forcibly buy back all automatic weapons at market value.

In summary, the current position is that you can shoot a hand gun at a pistol club, but the gun stays at the club. Farmers and hunters are allowed small calibre rifles.

We've had no further slaughter of the same scale for 16 years.

[Voltron]

Sorry Crappy, I just scrolled down too fast in my revulsion to HPA's post and over this hideous incident in the first place.  Anyway, it was not meant as an attack but just disagreement with throwing up ones hands about the efficacy of gun control.  My feeling is simply that it must be part of any solution to this mess.  The Expanding Man's post has some empirical evidence of success and some steps that could be taken.  I especially like the idea of secure gun clubs/shooting ranges where you can shoot your machine gun but then lock the damn thing back up.  Eventually the numbers of guns will diminish and the attitude about them in society will change. 

Edited December 14, 2012 by Voltron

[HeadphoneAddict]

Don't think that I didn't shed a tear over this. All it took was one mental image of the carnage with my kids faces superimposed on it, and I broke down. After I came to grips with the tragedy and loss I got pissed, and posted. If I had posted sooner what i was feeling Then I'd probably have been called a baby or a whiner. I don't care what you call me, but "appalled and concerned parent" is more appropriate.

[swt61]

There are others who disagree whole-heartedly with gun control, please let's not make this personal and call anyone out on anything.

I'm not calling anyone out. Just trying to clear up what was said and by who.

We have some very responsible gun enthusiast on this forum, and I'd be sad to see that hobby taken from them. Unfortunately there are many who are not responsible with their weapons.

I do not have the answer, but I like the idea of secure gun clubs. There of coarse is no perfect solution that will please everyone.

My heart goes out to those suffering from this latest tragedy.

Edited December 14, 2012 by swt61

[aardvark baguette]

I heard about this in the morning and thought only the gunman had been killed.  Wasn't until way later I heard the accurate numbers.

 

I can't believe this shit.  

Thats all.

[catscratch]

Don't worry about it, and feel free to call me out on anything. It's fine.

 

It's not just that I disagree with gun control in principle, I simply don't think that it will be effective, or that it will fly politically. Gun ownership is too culturally ingrained. Regardless, America is not the only country with this kind of prevalence of available guns, yet there seems to be a cultural difference in America that makes it statistically more likely for this sort of behavior to occur, and I'll be damned if I know what that is.

 

Anyway. Sorry about perpetuating this discussion - I agree that now is not the time.

[Voltron]

Don't think that I didn't shed a tear over this. All it took was one mental image of the carnage with my kids faces superimposed on it, and I broke down. After I came to grips with the tragedy and loss I got pissed, and posted. If I had posted sooner what i was feeling Then I'd probably have been called a baby or a whiner. I don't care what you call me, but "appalled and concerned parent" is more appropriate.

 

It is clear this upset you and I don't think people here would fault you for showing emotion.  The idea of arming teachers, however, is repugnant.  My wife is a teacher.  My parents were both teachers.  I have many other family members who are teachers and professors.  Thinking of them carrying weapons to do their jobs is just too ludicrous to imagine.

[n_maher]

Gun ownership is too culturally ingrained.

 

That's the lamest argument ever.  At one point lots of stupid, undefendable things were culturally ingrained.  Like slavery.  Like women shouldn't vote.  You get the point?  I'm not arguing that gun control is the answer, although I actually do think that it's a piece of the pie, but rather that to say that because there is momentum in one direction is a reason not to do something.  That's just lazy. 

 

As a parent I hurt for the families that this likely ruined.  I just want to hug my kids right now.

[morphsci]

It is a complex issue. Neither gun control nor concealed carry for the masses will solve the problem. My opinion.

That was the reasoned response. The emotional reponse is one of alternate sadness and rage.

[swt61]

I agree that now is not the time.

I disagree with this. I think now is the perfect time. It's way too easy to put this out of our minds during calm periods.

This will happen again, and again. There is no perfect solution, or it would be obvious, but exactly how many people, especially children have to die before we put forth some serious measures to try to stop this. If people have to give up some freedoms to save children I personally am OK with that. I know not everyone agrees, and I respect their opinions. Maybe gun control is not the answer, but it just may be time to find out.

[deepak]

Don't think that I didn't shed a tear over this. All it took was one mental image of the carnage with my kids faces superimposed on it, and I broke down. After I came to grips with the tragedy and loss I got pissed, and posted. If I had posted sooner what i was feeling Then I'd probably have been called a baby or a whiner. I don't care what you call me, but "appalled and concerned parent" is more appropriate.

 

Then why not say that in your first post? There were some of us that were offended by your post and it sounded like an opportunity for you to push your agenda.

 

Even (many) politicians take a day off from pushing their agenda following a tragedy.

 

If you posted that you broke down or cried after this happened I swear not a single Head-Caser would have called you a baby. If that is truly what you think, you do not know this community at all.

[jpelg]

A sad, sad day for our state. We are all in shock, anger, disgust, & overall mourning. It's clear from the news coverage that the rest of the country shares in this in a very personal way.

 

Hopefully we will get more answers in the coming days & weeks. In the meantime, as you all have said, our hearts & prayers go out to those most immediately affected - the victims & their families.

[grawk]

Here's a brief overview of one counter argument: CT is already hugely antigun, is surrounded by anti-gun states. Gun control doesn't stop things like this unless you go door to door collecting every gun in the country. And I guarantee that wouldn't go well.

But the argument now is just crass. On both sides. If you're against guns just because of tragedies, then fine, but outlawing something because 100 people in 300 million have gone crazy and shot up crowds is like banning gay marriage because some gay people are promiscuous, or banning cars because sometimes people ram buildings with them in order to steal ipads.

[Dusty Chalk]

We have some very responsible gun enthusiast on this forum, and I'd be sad to see that hobby taken from them. Unfortunately there are many who are not responsible with their weapons.

It's got nothing to do with hobbyism, it's got to do with self-defense.  I realize most of us don't consider home invasion on that scale as worthy of consideration outside of the movies, but if I were that rich, I would want my bodyguards to have that kind of caliber weapons.  At home, not in a gun club.

 

I think Expanding Man's statistics say more about the mental health of his country than it does about gun control.

... throwing up ones hands about the efficacy of gun control.  My feeling is simply that it must be part of any solution to this mess. 

Sorry, Al, but I gotta disagree completely.  My argument is not that I'm throwing up my hands on the efficacy of gun control, but that it will only affect the law-abiding citizens, which tilts things into the "makes things worse" direction.  If a homicidal and potentially suicidal nut job wants access, he will get it.  And I'm not saying having bigger guns will make the nut job stop, I'm saying it won't make any difference -- the real solution is knowledge -- educate the masses on mental health, and continued efforts by undercover police to find the terrorists before they attack.  That sort of thing.  There have been many success stories of FBI agents stopping murder sprees before they happen -- that is the solution.  More like this.

[swt61]

It's got nothing to do with hobbyism, it's got to do with self-defense.

OK, I hear your argument. But with all the guns on the street for committing crimes or for self defense of said crimes, how is a grade school student supposed to defend him or herself from the misuse of these weapons? Do these kids not have the right to feel safe? Do you have another solution?

[grawk]

Kids will worry for a couple of days whether or not we ban guns. Then they'll go on with their lives. There really isn't a risk of this happening at any given school. Way less likely than getting struck by lightning. If kids are really worried, get them counseling so they can know that.

Taking away rights because of a 1 in a million event is how police states happen.

[blessingx]

If I had posted sooner what i was feeling Then I'd probably have been called a baby or a whiner. I don't care what you call me, but "appalled and concerned parent" is more appropriate.

 

Another deletion. Fuck, I can't even comment on that without feeling guilty afterward. 

Edited December 15, 2012 by blessingx

[naamanf]

To soon. 

 

All I know is I'm going to give my daughter an extra(dozen) hugs tonight. 

 

And fuck you Mark Kelly for pushing your politics before the bloods even dry. 

[jpelg]

As a fairly recent, but increasingly avid, gun enthusiast, I can appreciate both sides of the debate. However, I happen to believe that bad people intent on doing evil things will find ways of obtaining the tools they require to carry them out. Most incidents like this are a result of long-term planning, rather than an immediate reaction from a mental "snap". I also happen to believe that taking guns out of the hands of good people won't stop them from falling into the hands of bad people.

[swt61]

We had some rights taken away after 911. We do not live in the world we once did. As Nate stated, it was once your right to own slaves. It was once your right to beat your Wife and children. It was also once your right to smoke cigarettes in the presence of others, who did not like breathing the second hand smoke. Times change, and the world changes with them.

[morphsci]

We had some rights taken away after 911.....

I do not think that bolsters your point.

[swt61]

I do not like those rights being taken away. I'm using that to point out that things do indeed change, even when we don't like it.

Dan suggested that taking rights away is a sign of a police state. Using that ideology, I then counter that we are already in a police state.

Edited December 15, 2012 by swt61

[crappyjones123]

The problem is that gun control starts off the process. But as others have mentioned, the mentally sick will find ways of hurting others -

http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1220230

How does one outlaw knives? I do find the idea of not having assault rifles out in the open better than having them out there but better screening of mental health, I think, needs to be instituted before guns of any caliber are sold.

[grawk]

There's a difference between it being legal to own slaves and having the right of self defense.

There's a difference between it being legal to smoke in public and having the right to marry whom you will.

There's a difference between it being legal to beat your wife and having the right to a free press.

Right now, there's the right to marry who you want, but it's not legal most places.

Beyond the rights issue tho, all making guns illegal is going to do is make it harder for people to legally defend themselves. Our existing smuggling networks will work just as well for guns going north as they have for guns going south, drugs going north, people going north, etc. Shit, you could probably order a container load of machine guns from eastern europe without much difficulty.

I get that you want people to not shoot defenseless kids. I don't want people to shoot defenseless kids either. I also don't want battered women to have their former spouses kill them while violating the restraining order against them because they've been left defenseless because they can't keep a gun at home. Every household in switzerland has a machine gun. And no gun crime. And almost no crime of any kind. In israel, most of the country is armed to the teeth. Guns aren't the problem. They're just the tool used in the problem.

And yes, we're on our way to a police state. Do you want to go farther down that road? Personally, I'd prefer we turn that trend around.

[swt61]

Dan, I'm actually not a hardened proponent of gun control, because I too do not know if it will work. But I'm willing to try it. We gave prohibition a try, and when the Government finally had to admit it was an utter failure, we repealed it. This is not something that is set in stone. I also believe that gun control on it's own has very little chance to do any good. But as a part of a bigger solution it might do some good. I'm not trying to impose my will. I'm willing to try other options. The unbending branch always breaks. I'm very open to hearing other options, but I think putting this on the back burner is irresponsible. It's time to acknowledge that we have a serious problem.

There's a difference between it being legal to own slaves and having the right of self defense.

Probably not to a slave.

 

Another deletion. Fuck, I can't even comment on that without feeling guilty afterward. 

You shouldn't feel guilty. As well as ridiculous, I found his first post very offensive. The fact that he doesn't get that it is offensive does little to diminish those feelings.

Edited December 15, 2012 by swt61