Torpedo Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 E34L is a perfect direct substitute of the EL34 if the circuit is designed for the later. E34L can be driven harder than the EL34, so on a EL34 tuned circuit the E34L will work perfectly fine, but on a circuit biased and conceived for the E34L, a EL34 might fail. More or less the same goes for the KT77. However when things are designed consciously and conservatively, both can be used without problems. I had forgotten that 6CA7 is the american nomenclature for the EL34 I thought you were speaking of the driver tubes... Just proclaims my ignorance of what tubes the BHSE uses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elephas Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Hahaha, remembering all the tube types and numbers can get confusing, but the Blue Hawaii uses only four of one type! Compare this serene simplicity with the SP ES-1, with eight tubes and the adapters. You don't want to know how many tubes types can be plugged in. For people who haven't heard a BH yet and are wondering about the tubes, yes, the tubes sound different but it isn't a large difference. It's the same with the ES-1, Aristaeus and Zana Deux. Having said that, after one becomes used to the sound, some of the relatively subtle changes are readily apparent. For example, changes in bass quantity and impact are especially obvious. Tube-rolling can be fun or it can become a burdensome expensive obsession (but still fun!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torpedo Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Sure. I've made a lot of tube swapping on my Filarmonia: My conclusions are similar, output tubes produce changes which aren't as huge and obvious as those provided by the input tubes, however the bottom end, treble extension and smoothness, and midrange richness are the areas were most of the differences may be noticed. Of the many tubes I've tried, the JJ E34L and KT77 are the ones with the most bodyful yet tight bass, without any treble edge. Russian tubes have decent bass, but treble is quite inferior. If Justin doesn't advise against the E34L, I'd recommend you to try them, but be warned of their reliability issues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elephas Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Yes, I noticed that in the Aristaeus and ES-1 the preamp tubes (12AX7, 5751, etc.) changed the sound more than the power tubes (ECL86 and EL34). They have more effect on aspects that the power tubes don't affect as much, such as details. With the BHSE so far, I agree that tube changes affect bass quantity, treble extension and quality, and the midrange the most. Given the much lower prices for the JJ tubes that I've seen, some reliability problems are not a problem. My main complaint with the HE90 is the lack of bass quantity and impact. With the Mullard xf2 00-getter, it is almost non-existent! OK, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but not really that much. If this was what Spritzer was hearing with his BH and xf2 tubes, no wonder he didn't like the HE90! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spritzer Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 The 6CA7 isn't the same tube as a EL34, at least the difference was large enough so they could claim it to be their own and not pay any royalties as a EL34. Can someone recommend me some tubes, for the HE90 and HE60? As full-bodied and bassy as possible, something with really deep massive bass. And they should also still have great refinement, smoothness, superb midrange, details, separation, sparkly shimmering treble without any harshness and all those other good things. I'm afraid all the tuberolling in the world won't help you here. What you are hearing is the core sound of the cans though a highly transparent amp and thats why I never recommend a BH (or KGSS, 717 etc.) for use with the HE90. I did get better results with the HE60 though but they will never be bass monsters, more in line with the 4070 and SR-X Mk3 Pro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drp Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Great exchange you guys. Not interested in a bass monster, just bass extension and speed to capture all the detail down under, help keep the pace. I'm more into midrange clarity and high end sparkle-related detail; the latter is where I think much of the headstage/size-of-recording-studio is reproduced. This is at least more fuel for my wait-to-buy-tubes mandate. If the HE60 does fare well for some recordings, I'll have a better mix when I eventually snag an O2 (how can I not?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elephas Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Some good news! This qualified as a really big emergency, so I decided to dig deep into my tube stash. Since some of the well-known old stock tubes aren't working, I tried Siemens-labeled Ei EL34 with slim glass tubes and three round holes on the plates and a tip on the top of the tube. These tubes are damn ugly, but maybe they'll sound good. Hmm, eh, uh, ugh, no good. Then I put in Tesla EL34, clear glass with a narrower and sharper-shaped top. Eh, uhg, still no good. Getting a bit desperate now. I don't want to turn the amp on and off many times a day. About four or five times seems reasonable, with cool-down time in-between? Really, I'm not some kind of mad tube roller. Digging deep inside the box, I catch a glimpse of white boxes labeled Mullard xf1. I stashed them away because these are the only matched quad I have! Oooh, ah, heh, haha, yay! Ah, this is better. Maybe not great, but definitely better than the xf2 00-getter. I didn't expect the xf1 and xf2 to be much different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elephas Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Here's the Siemens Ei EL34, it's kind of ugly Now look at the xf1 with the large dark brown base, so solid-looking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torpedo Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) The Mullards (NOS) I've tried in my amp sounded as you describe, wonderful midrange but lacking bass correctness. No depth, no impact, no authority. The treble is smooth, kind of silky and quite detailed, but lacks some spark and top extension. They're great for midrange bloom and meatiness. Lovely with voices if you don't care for anything else. Never tried EI EL34s, but I tried EL84 in other amp and 12AX7 in my phono pre. They don't sound much better than russian tubes. Maybe a tad bit more "elegant", but still not comparable to Telefunken or Siemens. For power tubes I don't think going NOS is really worth it. Power tubes have a quite short life expectancy (rarely more than 3000 hours) and while some of the NOS tubes have very interesting features, IME don't have the completeness and top to bottom balance that more modern tubes offer considering the price. Furthermore it's very difficult getting well matched quads. If the amp doesn't provide manual bias adjustment for each tube (as in my amp) this can generate more sonic problems than the benefits of using such special and expensive tubes. I think I've tried most of the currently available EL34/E34L tubes in the market. In my amp and with my speakers, the ones with the more balanced response across the freq spectrum and not being harsh anywhere, are the JJ E34L. The KT77 keep that balance, and sound a bit more authoritative in the bass, but trade off a bit of delicacy in the midrange. The ones I'm currently using are Chinese Shuguang EL34-B. These keep most of the JJ virtues, maybe a bass a bit less impactive, but still going deep and very well textured. I like them better for their midrange, which is rich and enveloping, it reminds me a lot of the 300B SET midrange (tonally, not for the full richness nor the spatial distribution). In the treble they're quite similar, at first the Shuguangs may seem less detailed, but they're not, it's just that they're a bit smoother, kind of recessed. If you decide to try them, be warned, these don't have reliability issues IME, but for the first 10 hours sound damn awful. Really, they're the tubes that change their sound with burn in more hugely of all the ones I've tried. They go from crappy sound to very good. Fortunately you don't need to wait for 400-800 hours just in the 2 first hours the changes are very evident and promising. With 10 hours the sound just slightly worse than they'll do after 50, 100, or 1000 hours. The quartet I'm using now probably has around 1500 hours on and still going strong. Edited August 23, 2009 by Torpedo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiosceptic Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Are you taking the time to bias the tubes every time you change them? I've been spending the afternoon trying the Siemens\RFT El34, Groove Tube EL34M and Amperex\Mullard XF4 EL34. So far I'm leaning to the Amperex but The EL34M is really good for a newer tube. I'm using a pair of SR-007 Mk I for testing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elephas Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Er, ahem. No, I don't know how to bias the tubes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spritzer Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 You really should bias the tubes. The balance pot isn't a big deal with matched pairs but reducing the offset is a must. So Justin, which pot is which? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elephas Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 (edited) But nobody told me!! I did try very hard to get matched quads. So I've been listening to crap all this time! Nobody tells me anything! *cry* No wonder the HE90+Aristaeus is better than the O2mk1+BHSE. HeadAmp versus HeadAmp Edited August 24, 2009 by Elephas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spritzer Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 (edited) I could only find one crappy picture of the top of the BHSE PCB but it looks like the offset (gain) pots are towards the front of the chassis and the balance pots towards the back. To adjust the balance you put the probes of the multimeter into the + and - output of each channel and adjust for 0VDC. The gain is adjusted with one probe in the + output on each channel and the other probe connected to ground on the amp, adjust for 0VDC. Please wait for Justin to verify this though before doing anything... Edited August 24, 2009 by spritzer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elephas Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Do you mean I have to open up the top of the chassis and actually need to use a multimeter?! The Aristaeus only has four philips screws on the amp section's cover, I see twelve allen hex screws on the cover of the BHSE amp section. Twelve! I thought we weren't supposed to touch allen hex screws, that's why SP amps use them? OK, the HE90+Aristaeus may not be better than the O2mk1+BHSE. I lied, I was just trying to annoy the Stax Mafia. I hope it wasn't succesfull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n_maher Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Do you mean I have to open up the top of the chassis and actually need to use a multimeter?! The Aristaeus only has four philips screws on the amp section's cover, I see twelve allen hex screws on the cover of the BHSE amp section. Twelve! You can adjust the BHSE bias without removing the top panel, just wait for instructions from Justin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopstretch Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Do you mean I have to open up the top of the chassis and actually need I lied, I was just trying to annoy the Stax Mafia. I hope it wasn't succesfull. Well, right now they're trying to trick you into electrocuting yourself. Draw your own conclusions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spritzer Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Ssssshhhhh Stretch!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikongod Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Well, right now they're trying to trick you into electrocuting yourself. Draw your own conclusions! dibbs on the ES-1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recstar24 Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Elephas, Biasing tubes is extremely important, and considering the monetary investment you have in the amp, a couple of minutes and a $5 multimeter is well worth the investment for optimal performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duggeh Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 dibbs on the ES-1 You have to play multimeter jenga to remove the killer probes from the high voltage elephant first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elephas Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 (edited) Biasing tubes is extremely important, and considering the monetary investment you have in the amp, a couple of minutes and a $5 multimeter is well worth the investment for optimal performance. You, sir, are the only nice human around here. You may have dibs on the ES-1. I got a multimeter some time ago, after I got an SRM-T1W and Spritzer explained how to bias the tubes. Apparently it's the same way with the BHSE, which also involves sticking the probes into the Stax output jack. I'm not a complete idiot. An incomplete one, sure, probably, especially when it comes to tube amps and I barely know how to use the multimeter. But I was already accustomed to removing the top cover of the Aristaeus to bias its tubes, and the SP ES-1 has convenient receptacles on each side to put the probes into and knobs to adjust. I expected something similar. I looked at the top cover of the BHSE amp section and didn't see the four tiny small gold screws inside the holes next to the tube sockets. I did see the twelve allen hex screws and figured that they're not meant to be unscrewed on a regular basis, unlike the Aristaeus' four simple philips-head screws. So, if the top cover stays put, and I don't see any knobs to turn to adjust bias, I thought there isn't anything I could do. Out of sight, out of mind. And nobody said anything! Anyway, that's my explanation. It took me an hour to think up, so I hope it's convincing. Currently playing: Madonna - Like A Prayer (12" Extended Remix) Oldie but goodie! Don't tell me everyone listens to sophisticated intelligentsia music! Classical and jazz, barf! I'll attend one of your meets secretly as an anonymous newbie and don't let me catch you with Britney, Beyonce, Leona Lewis, Rihanna, or other Top 40 on your playlists! Edited August 25, 2009 by Elephas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n_maher Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Elephas, The trimpots (gold screws) are recessed slightly but are still accessible without removing the top panel and yes, exactly like your SRM-T1W it will involve sticking probes into the stax jack and making adjustments. I did it with the BHSE when I had it on loan from Justin for the NYC meet, it is not difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elephas Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Yes, it's fine, I was able to perform the procedure. I waited until the amp was warmed up, but did require re-biasing about an hour later when the amp was even warmer. I would've preferred larger biasing adjustment screws, the tiny flat-blade screwdriver can slip. And the locations are not really ideal, the tubes are in the way and add some clumsiness and ouch! Justin recommended the outside of an RCA jack at the back to use as ground to touch one of the probes to. The probe tends to slip off the RCA jack, is there anything else I can use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spritzer Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 I would've preferred larger biasing adjustment screws, the tiny flat-blade screwdriver can slip. And the locations are not really ideal, the tubes are in the way and add some clumsiness and ouch! Just buy one of these. They are designed for adjusting those pots. Justin recommended the outside of an RCA jack at the back to use as ground to touch one of the probes to. The probe tends to slip off the RCA jack, is there anything else I can use? How about one of these soldered to a spare RCA plugs ground and some wire. These tip jacks are similar to what is used on the ES-1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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