Dry hump mod.

[deepak]

woah Tyll, you are the man!

x2!

Really nice work

[arnaud]

I wasn't expecting much when I asked for measurements, so when I saw Tyll's post, it was like one of the most exciting  reads for some time now! Can't thank you enough for taking the time Tyll (or maybe by getting my act together and completing these csds for you - although you may have lost interest by now lol).

This response of yours is almost overkill and I fear for ipodpj's garden hose business!

[Tyll Hertsens]

(or maybe by getting my act together and completing these csds for you - although you may have lost interest by now lol).

NAblur is helping me with tech stuff. ATM it's about amp measurements. But when we're through I'm gonna have him start working on making a macro to modify spreadsheets. (There's some new data ans configurations I want to add.) Anyway, don't worry about getting anything done for me as A) I can't deal with it right now, and once the amp measurements gets going, maybe you and Brian (NAblur) can get together to work it out.

This response of yours is almost overkill and I fear for ipodpj's garden hose business!

Um ... well, if he can't take the light of day he shouldn't be in business.

[acidbasement]

I haven't laughed like that from reading HF in a long time.

[Dusty Chalk]

Outstanding work, Tyll. My chapeau, had I had one, would be off to you.

For those who stopped reading, Jude posted later in the thread. I initially got angry, because he was criticizing "personal" attacks, while not saying anything else on the topic, but then he made that "out there" comment, and realized that he was just understatingly reinforcing the "nucking futz" comment. Either that or he is high. "think he realized" -- Jude really doesn't read his own board enough if ( a ) he honestly thinks this, or ( b ) he honestly feels that saying that will have anything other than a reinforcing effect on his (iPodPJ's) completely delusionally egocentric perspective of the world.

Okay, okay, but in all seriousness -- wouldn't a slight microscopic delay (one cm (?) / speed of sound ~= 0.03 ms?) take care of combing effect? Or would the diffusing nature of the external shell of the internal headphone cause the effects to be more chaotic? Also, what would the effect be if one were to wear an outer headphone in the form of a passive radiator? (Realizing that one doesn't exist of headphone size.)

[Audiojunkie]

I haven't laughed like that from reading HF in a long time.

Simply classic...best laugh I've had all month!

[Tyll Hertsens]

Outstanding work, Tyll. My chapeau, had I had one, would be off to you.

Thanks.

Okay, okay, but in all seriousness -- wouldn't a slight microscopic delay (one cm (?) / speed of sound ~= 0.03 ms?) take care of combing effect? Or would the diffusing nature of the external shell of the internal headphone cause the effects to be more chaotic? Also, what would the effect be if one were to wear an outer headphone in the form of a passive radiator? (Realizing that one doesn't exist of headphone size.)

Chaos really. Headphones are already tough enough to design, putting a bunch of extra shit in there doesn't seem to be worth it given what I've heard from multiple-driver and noise canceling headphones.

The only legit reason for slappin one headphone over another, it seems to me, is putting isolating muffs or noise cancelers over IEMs. That, I think, may be a reasonable idea. One headphone placed over another is a one in a million crap-shoot.

QC15s unplugged over JH13s FTMFW.

[Dusty Chalk]

(nods, strokes chin)

[Knuckledragger]

Years ago, my former housemate would wear both earbuds and circumnaurals when he wanted to play video games and listen to music at the same time. His laptop wasn't powerful enough to run [whatever game he was playing] and Winamp at the same time. He used the earbuds for the VG noises, and the circumnaurals for the music. If you look closely as this shot, you can see he's still got the earbuds in. I got sick of insane amount of sounding leaking out of the music cans as well as him having to take off two pairs of headphones to hear me talk to him, so I eventually built him a rig based around one of my old DJ mixers so he could listen to to two sources with one pair of cans.

That reminds me, do you think we'll ever see an "audiophile" version of that? A headphone amp/preamp that allows the mixing of two inputs at the same time. There has be at least some part of the market that wants to hear video game noises and music from two different analog sources.

[Tyll Hertsens]

Absolutely! I've always thought that a keyboard with a pre-amp function for speakers/headphones, and a mix function for phone/computer/analog in would be cool. Mix and match iPhone and computer? Yeah, that sounds pretty cool. It may have to be a bit big, but it could double as a monitor stand and be thin and quite deep with the connectors way in the back. Hell, you could put some class-D amps in it and power the desktop speakers as well.

[Wmcmanus]

BTW Wayne, you'll notice I took your moniker for the mod when making the measurements (upper right corner):

Hope you don't mind.

Mind? I'm honored, my friend. Your's was a brilliant and well supported response, diced with a sweet dose of STFU-ery.

[Torpedo]

Tyll, I think it'd be interesting measuring the HD800 with the back grill covered. I think the change in the measured performance has more relation to that than for the sound from the 650 adding on. I guess there will be some differences from covering it with some foam, paper or try to completely seal it.

What I don't think has any relation is the balanced/SE think which was suggested on the other site.

[kevin gilmore]

quote by a complete and utter idiot

In order for Tyll to reproduce the same results I was referring to, he has to run the HD800 balanced and the HD650 single ended. I have no idea if he did that or not. It's good to see results on paper though as I was also curious to see those, and regardless of one's thoughts that doesn't negate the fact they sound great in my system and I like them. I don't particularly like orthos but others do, so to each their own.

What the fuck does running one balanced, and the other single ended have anything to do with anything, except possibly getting the phase backwards on the hd800's

which should cause all sorts of additional problems.

And the bit about requiring magic cables is also quite entertaining.

Edited July 14, 2012 by kevin gilmore

[arnaud]

Actually, I think the idea is to have double the gain on the HD800, else the comb filter effect would be even more miserable as Tyll showed in the link. It gets more complicated here with the mess of a dual frame / partial obtrusion of the HD800 acoustic screen, but at least it's likely less offending to run the hd650 at a lower gain.

[nattonrice]

DAMN IT! Kevin beat me to it.

I thought I was being so witty...

Edit: this is what I get for reading HF before coming here, I deserve to be slapped.

Edited July 14, 2012 by nattonrice

[kevin gilmore]

Any amp that ipodpj is going to have is probably not

Going to like driving balanced and unbalanced at

The same time. Bound to cause additional trouble.

[chinsettawong]

Hahaha! Seeing this thread makes me want to try stacking 2 pairs of electrostatic headphones together. Maybe I'll try.

[arnaud]

Wasn't there a discussion of dual diaphragm for 009 when little detail was known (which turned out to be the multi layer stators)? I am unsure as to what could possibly turn out good. Only thing I saw that had potential is two back to back iem drivers loading the same cavity symmetrically.

Edited July 14, 2012 by arnaud

[Dusty Chalk]

Someone needs to emulate Wilson Benesch's isobaric speakers in headphones. You know, for TEH BASS.

[spritzer]

Stacking diaphragms is certainly possible and both Sony and Koss have done that in commercial products. It does bring up the idea of how do you drive them, three stators and two diaphragms with them working in tandem though a time delay or run the out one out of absolute phase. It would also be possible to simply ground the outer most stator (so it wouldn't be running at full power) for a semi passive radiator.

The other approach would be to stack two different drivers but then you have interference issues plus how to handle the backwave off the front driver which will bounce off the second driver. One could use ports and a bass reflex design (like the 4070) but then it becomes very complex. Let's just say I've been thinking about this stuff for some time now...

Wasn't it Linn who make the IsoBarik speakers?

[Tyll Hertsens]

So, is there a cut-off frequency of these isobaric designs? Can the distance be greater than 1/4 wavelength between the two speakers?

At 20kHz the 1/4 wavelength is about 4mm. That's pretty close spacing ... but an estat could do it probably.

I would think making a full-range driver with this technology would be very difficult.

[chinsettawong]

I actually am listening to my stacked headphones right now. They sound pretty good. The increase in efficiency and dynamic is easily noticeable.

When I played with my 3 stators 2 diaphragms headphones last time, I didn't like them at all. Perhaps I did something wrong last time. I think I'll try it one more time.

Hi Tyll! The 4 mm spacing is easily achievable. But can the spacing be shorter? Mine will only be about 2.6 mm.

Wachara C.

Edited July 14, 2012 by chinsettawong

[spritzer]

Pretty much anything is possible but the normal electrostatic wiring setup limits all of this somewhat. I'm not sure many would like a 10 conductor headphone cable needed to feed different bias voltages and time delayed signals to the drivers.

I do think that operating two full range drivers sort of misses the point though so one should be designed for higher frequencies while the other for lower. A simple way to do this would be via diaphragm thickness and bias setup.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

No shit.

I couldn't help but spend the 3 hours to make the post. I can't tell you how much I wanted to make it an InnerFidelity post and rack up some page views on it, but I figured that might be cruel.

The last three sentences of your post was some of the funniest (and truthful) shit I've seen in a long time. I just came across that thread today....and hustled on over here for the better perspective.

[Dusty Chalk]

I was actually thinking of Isobaric (it's a concept -- I learned of it from Wilson Benesch, but that by no means they own the patent on it, it's just that -- of the speakers on my personal radar -- they are the only ones I am aware of) bass drivers in a 2-way system. Also, was just causing trouble, can't imagine how that would hold up in a headphone (I.E. the weight issue), unless you went IEM.