Sennheiser HD 800 Redux

[jantze]

A friend just tested my balanced beta 22 for a couple of days.

Compared to Rudistor RP-030 and Sennheiser HDVD 800, he's preference was:

1. RP-030 (more bass and a slight overall winner)

2. Beta 22 (more open / transparent / neutral)

3. HDVD 800 ("big" difference to previous two)

 

He has re-cabled HD800's and very good source. He also had my TPA Buffalo II DAC for comparison.

 

My DAC has similar attributes, but I still like the quite neutral sound.

 

I guess I should try the mods next. Does anyone have extra material for sale?

 

Edit: he has previously owned all the high end headphones, amps, you name it, including a Sennheiser Orpheus set.

Edited July 19, 2013 by jantze

[complin]

Big difference in what way positive or negative !

 

A friend just tested my balanced beta 22 for a couple of days.

Compared to Rudistor RP-030 and Sennheiser HDVD 800, he's preference was:

1. RP-030 (more bass and a slight overall winner)

2. Beta 22 (more open / transparent / neutral)

3. HDVD 800 ("big" difference to previous two)

 

[spritzer]

Big difference in what way positive or negative !

 

The comparison is against a Rudistor...  I'd think severe brain trauma could be a factor here. 

[Voltron]

Big difference in what way positive or negative !

 

The comparison is against a Rudistor...  I'd think severe brain trauma could be a factor here. 

 

While Birgir is correct, just reading the post makes clear the rank order.  Rudistor being identified as slight overall winner means that the big difference has to be negative.  Thus, Jantze's brain damaged friend believes the HDVD comes in last by a wide margin compared to both his horrible favorite and the B22.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Voltron

[n_maher]

And thus makes for a confusing read, eh?

 

What I'd say is that given Tyll's recent thoughts (i.e. liking the 800s lots driven by something without near-0 output impedance) that the Rudi amp likely fits at least part of that profile and might actually be better suited to driving the 800s compared to the beta22.

[spritzer]

The B22 would be a pretty terrible match for the HD800 in the first place.  It's certainly not fully neutral with a tendency towards brightness which is not a good match. 

 

I do get somebody liking the Rudistor as the cap coupled output and quite frankly, horrific circuit design would fix some of the HD800's issues.  Now this is doing it with a nuke than a tactical strike but the end result could be pleasing.  People sure like the Luxman amps with the HD800 and the circuits have some similarities, including the cap coupling. 

[Dusty Chalk]

I didn't know they still made HDVD's.

[spritzer]

http://soundnews.ro/2013/07/18/sennheiser-hdvd800-review/

 

Internal pics and it is quite dire indeed.  Chipamps underneath the big sink and hello output resistors which means the 43ohm was intentional. 

[jantze]

Big difference in what way positive or negative !

 

Negative. He didn't mention the differences.

[jantze]

The B22 would be a pretty terrible match for the HD800 in the first place.  It's certainly not fully neutral with a tendency towards brightness which is not a good match. 

 

I do get somebody liking the Rudistor as the cap coupled output and quite frankly, horrific circuit design would fix some of the HD800's issues.  Now this is doing it with a nuke than a tactical strike but the end result could be pleasing.  People sure like the Luxman amps with the HD800 and the circuits have some similarities, including the cap coupling. 

 

I'm not sure why, but my beta 22 & HD800 combo doesn't sound terrible at all. Luck, re-cabling or something else? Many didn't like HD800's, until they listened to my set, since it's not too bright.

I guess it's all about your personal preference.

Edited July 20, 2013 by jantze

[complin]

Thats what surprised me. Having tried one in the past I would not call the sound neutral.

 

I do get somebody liking the Rudistor as the cap coupled output and quite frankly, horrific circuit design would fix some of the HD800's issues.  Now this is doing it with a nuke than a tactical strike but the end result could be pleasing.  People sure like the Luxman amps with the HD800 and the circuits have some similarities, including the cap coupling. 

[complin]

Not much a review then

 

Negative. He didn't mention the differences.

[nikongod]

IME the HD800 just do best with an amp that has "a sound." I have never been thrilled by the HD800 on a "wire with gain" style amp where stuff with character (objectively flaws) just brings them out. 

 

Like *him* or not, Rudistor likes to build amps with "a sound". AKA not wire with gain. 

 

Following that, it makes perfect sense that the HD800 would sound better with a Rudistor amp than the B22.

Would they sound better still on an amp made by a competent designer of amps with sound? Probably.

Could you make a buy a better sound than Rudi for less money? Heck yea. 

[Torpedo]

I still keep the RPX-100 on the TV set to watch movies and concerts. The HD800 sound more than decent with it for that purpose.

With the B22, to my ears, the combination is acceptable, very clean and detailed, in the clinical side of things with poor recordings but not to die for even with good recordings. The Luxman or the Gilmore Reference make a better match for my taste. Around these lands there're lots of people who love them with the Leben CS-300X. But heck, what do I know, I'm a Stax mobster 

[spritzer]

It is a bit ironic that the most revealing dynamic headphone ever made needs that...   I'm with Ari though that wire with gain is not a good thing for the 800's at least not fully stock. 

[guzziguy]

I'll disagree in that I think the HD800 sound great with ECP L-2 and DSHA-1 amps.  I don't think that these amps have a "sound".

[Tyll Hertsens]

The real question is if a wire with gain amp (say a Pico Power) with a 43 Ohm series adapter sounds better than an "amp with character" with a ~40 Ohm output impedance?

 

Ima do an article about this, but the bottom line is it depends on the character of the amp.

 

The L-2 is glorious. Have you seen its very evenly spaced in amplitude harmonic series? That's a biggie. 

 

I bet the Pico Power would sound tight as transparent as shit, and the output impedance would warm the 800 nicely.

 

And I bet a poorly designed amp with character and a high output impedance would be like a drunk hooker who'd blow you for free:

Good at first, but worry some over time, 

Edited July 21, 2013 by Tyll Hertsens

[dsavitsk]

If somebody wants to send me a 43 Ohm adapter, I'm happy to test out the SquareWave XL with and without it, as well as Ric's DSHA-1 proto while I have it...

 

The Z out on both the L-2 and DSHA-1 on the high setting is ~40 Ohms. On the low setting, it is lower, ~10 Ohms for each. Much of this comes from the copper resistance in the transformers.

 

Adding series resistance on the low setting will make both sound worse. This is because the transformers only have so much inductance. Beyond a certain point, the load has too high of an impedance for this inductance. Adding the series resistance will create a mismatch and you'll lose bass, and just muck thing up.

[justin]

The real question is if a wire with gain amp (say a Pico Power) with a 43 Ohm series adapter sounds better than an "amp with character" with a ~40 Ohm output impedance?

 

maybe, but it won't glow pretty

[Sherwood]

maybe, but it won't glow pretty

 

Ah yes, that "tubey" sound

[spritzer]

I'm with Doug that simply adding series resistance to transformer coupled amps is not a good idea but with directly coupled amps it works just fine. 

 

I do think the HD800 first and foremost needs a very stable amp, one that isn't swayed by the odd load.  Take something like the SPL Phonitor, arguably wire with gain but really just a crappy opamp circuit and it sounds horrible with the 800.  Thin, bright, edgy etc. and adding 32 ohm to it (it's output impedance is 9 ohm) didn't make it right.  Better but not as good as the Dynalo or Dynahi with the same 43ohm.  OTL amps have their own issues too. 

 

In the HDVD800 I think I can make out 22R in series with the SE outputs and 10R in series with each leg of the XLR.  I wonder what output chips they used though...

 

Couple of things I like about the L-2, the glow is all but impossible to see and there is no tuberolling.   

[complin]

Tyll... have you got her cell phone number

 

 

And I bet a poorly designed amp with character and a high output impedance would be like a drunk hooker who'd blow you for free:

Good at first, but worry some over time, 

Edited July 21, 2013 by complin

[Dusty Chalk]

Yeah, that's the big mystery, innit?  I have one friend who suspects drugs were involved.  But I don't think so.

 

Call the FCC on the gospel station, I bet they're non-compliant.

 

EDIT:  Wait, the headphone cable?  Post-amplification?

[shellylh]

I really loved my SP Extreme.  They are really nice while they are alive. 

[RudeWolf]

Well, I wasn't around to see the Mikhail meltdown but if there's one thing I know- money never makes anyone a better person. You just constantly accelerate and in the end it's like an amp driving a dead short. If you can get up one time more than you've fallen then it makes for one helluva life experience. Minus the other folks that only got burned, that is.