Sennheiser HD 800 Redux

[Anaxilus]

I haven't been following headphone-related stuff in the past few months but didn't Sennheiser slightly change the tuning of the later editions of the HD800? I know a friend who sold his 2009 version to get the latest because he swears that the newer version has a more prominent bass and less upper-mid peak. 

 

No.  We've measured 6 different sets from varying serial numbers (early-late) and found minimal to no differences.  Most typically .5-1.5dB along various regions from 1.5khz-6khz.  In all cases, bass response was near identical.  There was a rare set of 'early' pads that a user has reported using on his early model 800 that was both thinner and excessively worn out that he used to do all his A/B comparisons with.  He since replaced them w/ new pads and says they sound like a different animal.  No kidding.  The bass light/bass heavy HD800 is myth by all accounts and evidence we've seen, both subjective and objective.  The greatest explanation for HD800 variation is upstream gear, then lack of gain matching  and then perhaps head/ear placement.

 

One will also notice a trend toward more balanced HD800s recently because their upstream gear is often upgraded over time, this is a possible correlation as well. 

 

The one area we know Sennheiser has changed was how they are putting out user FR charts w/ reduced 6khz peaks for the sake of marketing.  We've measure present and absent 6khz peaks based on Senn graphs to be essentially identical.  It's the same reason Audeze started randomizing serial #'s.  To manage consumer perception which limits negative fiscal impacts to them.

[Anaxilus]

 

Anax hasn't completed his production mod, has he?  I'm kinda waiting for that to shuffe some orders his way if he does it.  Better PM him sometime soon to find out.

 

Sorry Tyll, no I haven't.  I got caught up w/ Leviathan development which put finalization of production units on the back burner.  Once I get the transformer orders set I can get back to it.  I'll keep you posted!

[Anaxilus]

Tyll, I personally know Mike & Marv, nice guys, and have had a mini meet with them and their preference for warmer stuff pervades that site IMO...

 

Not saying that is bad, but it is a preference to which I do not subscribe.  So, no Cavalli, RSA stuff for me.  One of them told me, can't remember who, that they listen to mostly 80's music, and pop, if I remember correctly, so that may explain why 90% of the things they listen to are "harsh".

 

Hey Andy, we like you too!  However, I'm going to have to politely disagree w/ your assessment here.  We both listen to a lot of 80s music but we also listen to a lot of just about everything.  We both have rather eclectic musical tastes.  I can say that my genre preference is just about everything except for Dubstep.  You can see what tracks we've used for our reviews in the past here.  My tracks are on the far right, purrin's are on the left.  I'd say that's a pretty wide breadth beyond '80's music'.  I believe many HD800 listeners tend to prefer strings, classical and more specific genres that do less to spotlight issues w/ the HD800, so our tests seem to me to be quite rigorous by most subjective standards.  They simply have flaws, all phones have flaws of some sort, we can hear them and measure them and have done so. 

 

I have to say I'm surprised you say you prefer the HD800 as they are, if I recall they aren't even in your top 5 or maybe even 10 favorite headphones?

 

I also agree w/ Tyll that we do NOT prefer over warmed syrupy sound.  In fact, most of that type of gear is on our shit list.  Now, we also wouldn't characterize a sound that has adequate dynamic representation below 500hz to be syrupy either.  Nor would we characterize that same absence as 'accurate' but more as thin, dynamically flat, dull, and over analytical.  If you recall at that meet, I did mention that something seemed off w/ how your rig was sounding after which you found your Amarra has the treble boosted by accident.  Now maybe my syrupy ears were just too sensitive to the added brittleness, who can say. Based on your comments I'd have to say you seem to not like how the HE90 or 007 sounds w/ the Aristaeus.  Is that syrup in your opinion?  All I know is, a well recorded binaural violin or piano needs to sound like the same type of violin or piano I still remember playing as a youngster.  If the best recordings out there all sound like you are sitting at the very back of a performance w/ all the detail and dynamics diffused out, or it seems like you are just listening to simple dull 2D recording, then something is amiss IMHO.  Anyone is entitled to like whatever they like, but I know what an instrument I and others have played sounds like to me.  I have no other standard. 

Edited May 14, 2013 by Anaxilus

[Anaxilus]

Last I read, spirit over there wasn't quite the refreshing kind it used to be, so am not surprised people don't generally want the links here.

I for one since I got banned in a click and can't read anyway lol. Best thing that happened to me over that side in retrospect .

 

Pft, Arnaud, you know why you were banned.  You spent a year and half taking passive aggressive personal digs at purrin on just about every public forum.  And he never responded in kind till you tried to do it on his own website that he pays for himself.  Now maybe he doesn't understand the French penchant for Ridicule, but I can't say I blame him for loosing it.  If it's the best thing, could you stop trying to login to our site then?  You've done it more than 20 times since...   

Edited May 14, 2013 by Anaxilus

[arnaud]

Anaxilus, yeah, I have it so bad, I try to log in each and every day, and I cry every time because I was banned, I am missing reading that stuff so much! This is hilarious how far you guys are taking all this

[Tyll Hertsens]

 I'll keep you posted!

 

Please do! Thanks.

[spritzer]

Some impressions of the 43ohm mod with fresh ears, unspoiled by electrostatic glory.    It does dull the sound quite a bit so the top end appears to be smoother but it does also remove the natural bite that should be there with some instruments/mixes.  The midrange is also affected as they have a bit of that "lost in the clouds" presentation the HE90 is famous for so the sharp focus is gone.  The bass is not as clean as it should be, everything is a bit smeared and out of control.  It is a big improvement over the 120R adapter I made back in the day though so perhaps there is value that makes them just right?

 

For the record, this set is stock everything except I used the old speaker trick and coated the inside of the cups with a thin layer of faux suede. 

 

Anaxilus, yeah, I have it so bad, I try to log in each and every day, and I cry every time because I was banned, I am missing reading that stuff so much! This is hilarious how far you guys are taking all this

 

I'd just be proud as it is the equivalent of being kicked off the Head-Fi short bus...

[shellylh]

The high Z out is right around where the Senn amp is. The Lo is about 1/4 as much. I tend to think they sound better with the high one, but it is really a matter of preference.

Is the difference between low/high Z output determned by the setting of the jumpers inside the amp. Mine is set to low Z I believe (only one set of jumpers). Where can I get another set of jumpers to try high Z? Or is the difference going to be subtle enough that it is not worth it (also I have the prototype s maybe it is different). I am using it with the HD800s mostly.

[recstar24]

My DSHA has a switch to go back and forth and truly its not that big of a difference IMO. You get more volume on the high output obviously but otherwise low output is fine. If anything you could argue the low output is better equipped to handle the wild impedance swings. I find the hd800 issue in terms of driving it to be less about output impedance or voltage:current and more about quality and linearity of the amp itself.

[blubliss]

Hey Andy, we like you too!  However, I'm going to have to politely disagree w/ your assessment here.  We both listen to a lot of 80s music but we also listen to a lot of just about everything.  We both have rather eclectic musical tastes.  I can say that my genre preference is just about everything except for Dubstep.  You can see what tracks we've used for our reviews in the past here.  My tracks are on the far right, purrin's are on the left.  I'd say that's a pretty wide breadth beyond '80's music'.  I believe many HD800 listeners tend to prefer strings, classical and more specific genres that do less to spotlight issues w/ the HD800, so our tests seem to me to be quite rigorous by most subjective standards.  They simply have flaws, all phones have flaws of some sort, we can hear them and measure them and have done so. 

 

I have to say I'm surprised you say you prefer the HD800 as they are, if I recall they aren't even in your top 5 or maybe even 10 favorite headphones?

 

I also agree w/ Tyll that we do NOT prefer over warmed syrupy sound.  In fact, most of that type of gear is on our shit list.  Now, we also wouldn't characterize a sound that has adequate dynamic representation below 500hz to be syrupy either.  Nor would we characterize that same absence as 'accurate' but more as thin, dynamically flat, dull, and over analytical.  If you recall at that meet, I did mention that something seemed off w/ how your rig was sounding after which you found your Amarra has the treble boosted by accident.  Now maybe my syrupy ears were just too sensitive to the added brittleness, who can say. Based on your comments I'd have to say you seem to not like how the HE90 or 007 sounds w/ the Aristaeus.  Is that syrup in your opinion?  All I know is, a well recorded binaural violin or piano needs to sound like the same type of violin or piano I still remember playing as a youngster.  If the best recordings out there all sound like you are sitting at the very back of a performance w/ all the detail and dynamics diffused out, or it seems like you are just listening to simple dull 2D recording, then something is amiss IMHO.  Anyone is entitled to like whatever they like, but I know what an instrument I and others have played sounds like to me.  I have no other standard. 

Ok, fair enough.  But, I still say you guys prefer warmer stuff than me.  At our mini-meet, that PWD you had was very warm, IMO, and I owned a PWD II for awhile and thought it was quite inferior to both of my other sources in the end.  Too muddled.  You guys seem to use the PWD as a benchmark and I think it is just a fair source.  

[jpelg]

Does "Hi-Z"/"Low-Z" on the ECP amp refer to the change in output impedance or to the gain setting?

[recstar24]

Z is short for impedance.

[shellylh]

Ok, so people are just talking about the switch on the front (which also seems to change impedance) and not setting the jumpers (which also changes impedance?).  

[Tari]

With the ECP amps, we're just talking about the switch on the front.

[dsavitsk]

Ok, so people are just talking about the switch on the front (which also seems to change impedance) and not setting the jumpers (which also changes impedance?).  

 

Yes, the front switch. On the DSHA-1 it changes whether the two output windings are in parallel or series. The transformers are 1+1:1+1 (quadfilar). The inputs are always in parallel, so when the outputs are in parallel, the transformer is 1:1. When they are in series, they are 1:2. The Zout of the circuit itself is very low. The Z difference is due to the copper in the transformer. This is true with all transformer coupled amps -- they all have added Z due tot he copper.

 

The jumpers change the gain. As a byproduct, they also change the input impedance, but not in a way that will make any difference for 99% of sources.

[Anaxilus]

Ok, fair enough.  But, I still say you guys prefer warmer stuff than me.  At our mini-meet, that PWD you had was very warm, IMO, and I owned a PWD II for awhile and thought it was quite inferior to both of my other sources in the end.  Too muddled.  You guys seem to use the PWD as a benchmark and I think it is just a fair source.  

 

Oh I agree with you there.  Purrin likes a little more warmth than myself too.  For clarification, that PWD was a mk1, not a mk2.  Also purrin did use FW that he felt better synergized w/ the HD800.  The mk2 you heard was at the LA meet in the high rollers room.  The new mk1 w/ the new mk2 is an upgrade and much more clear w/ better separation and imaging while preserving dynamics of the mk1.  Can't say anything about the current mk2 as they simply sound different than the older upgraded mk1>mk2s.  We currently do NOT recommend people buy a new mk2 from PS Audio.  They do not sound the same so beware to any potential buyers out there.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Anaxilus

[shellylh]

Yes, the front switch. On the DSHA-1 it changes whether the two output windings are in parallel or series. The transformers are 1+1:1+1 (quadfilar). The inputs are always in parallel, so when the outputs are in parallel, the transformer is 1:1. When they are in series, they are 1:2. The Zout of the circuit itself is very low. The Z difference is due to the copper in the transformer. This is true with all transformer coupled amps -- they all have added Z due tot he copper.

 

The jumpers change the gain. As a byproduct, they also change the input impedance, but not in a way that will make any difference for 99% of sources.

 

Thanks for the clarification Doug.  

[morphsci]

....  We currently do NOT recommend people buy a new mk2 from PS Audio.  They do not sound the same so beware to any potential buyers out there.

That reminds me. When does Ender's Game come out?

[tjkurita]

Yes, the front switch. On the DSHA-1 it changes whether the two output windings are in parallel or series. The transformers are 1+1:1+1 (quadfilar). The inputs are always in parallel, so when the outputs are in parallel, the transformer is 1:1. When they are in series, they are 1:2. The Zout of the circuit itself is very low. The Z difference is due to the copper in the transformer. This is true with all transformer coupled amps -- they all have added Z due tot he copper.

 

The jumpers change the gain. As a byproduct, they also change the input impedance, but not in a way that will make any difference for 99% of sources.

 

 

Damn. ^ This guy knows his stuff... 

 

I think I will have some impedance adapters made to see what all this impedance matching is about. 

Edited May 15, 2013 by tjkurita

[spritzer]

They are certainly the best dynamic ever made, 

 

I brought the Senn dealer here an impedance adapter this week for them to try out.  They were pleased by the difference but I'll have to visit them again once they've had some more time with it. 

[tjkurita]

using Al's loaner pair, while i waiting for mine (and for me to figure out the balanced portion), and i think they just rule.  best non-stat headstage i've heard, and just so linear and detailed.  straight out of the DAC-1, they occasionally show some sibilance, but they seem to be perfectly balanced (no pun intended) run out of the SquareWave Xl with KG PSU.  comparing them to my Etys, the treble seems completely accurate.  great bass, and a wonderful and textured midrange.  crystal clear, top to bottom.  go-go gadget credit card.

 

I definitely second your findings.  My HD800s have a couple hundred hours on them and I can safely say that they are my favorite headphones of all time and the best that have been in my system.  Using my 300b amp, they sound significantly better than the O2/SR-007t combo I owned for quite a while.  They have all the speed, neutrality, and non-fatiguing smoothe detail of that system with the added punch, bass weight, and liveliness of dynamic headphones.  The bass is tight and deep and accurate.  Always there when it is needed, but not boomy or overpowering.  The highs are clear and airy and the midrange is, as you say, wonderful.  I can listen to these headphones for hours on end without any fatigue or discomfort.  This is something very new to me.  My headphone experiences have gone from painful (K1K) to boring (O2/SR007t).  This is nowhere near painful and definitely not boring.  And yet totally unfatiguing.  Lastly, the soundstage and presentation is the best of any headphone I have experienced.  The K1K had something special in this area because of their physical design but they were so horribly unlistenable for me I didn't get to appreciate any of those qualities. 

[deepak]

Aww I go away for a month and this place turns into an HD800 love fest

using Al's loaner pair, while i waiting for mine (and for me to figure out the balanced portion), and i think they just rule.  best non-stat headstage i've heard, and just so linear and detailed.  straight out of the DAC-1, they occasionally show some sibilance, but they seem to be perfectly balanced (no pun intended) run out of the SquareWave Xl with KG PSU.  comparing them to my Etys, the treble seems completely accurate.  great bass, and a wonderful and textured midrange.  crystal clear, top to bottom.  go-go gadget credit card.

Of course you would like them you CD3000 fanboy

[Voltron]

He's even listening to Bjork again!  Welcome back Pak

[Audiojunkie]

has anybody heard the HD700s?  they are significantly cheaper than the HD800s ($700-ish used).  would i be constantly yearning for the HD800s, or are they close enough?  i guess i probably know the answer to that one...

The HD700s are pretty bad...I prefer the HD600s over them. Not sure what Sennheiser did, but they took several steps back with these cans IMO.

[robm321]

^ agreed, I wouldn't bother.