Sennheiser HD 800 Redux

[shellylh]

ECP prototype FTW!

[guzziguy]

All of Doug's current amps are balanced, except for a couple of prototypes.  The HD800 sounds great with either the L-2 or DSHA-1.  Try to get a prototype or look for a used unit.  Todd's asking price for his L-2 was down to $1300 or $1400 before he auctioned it off.  I doubt that you would be able to find a better production amp for the HD800 than the L-2 at any price.

Edited June 15, 2013 by guzziguy

[The Monkey]

yeah, Donald North Audio Sonnet 2.  think the Luxman can be had for $1300?  i also wanted a balance amp...

 

I saw a listing recently that startled me.  Forget where it was.  Admittedly, they don't come up often.

[Voltron]

I'm not a fan of Donald North Audio stuff -- nice guy but nothing special imho and a lot of money for what you get.  Doug's ECP amps, a TTVJ/Apex Peak, a Zana Deux or a Luxman P-1 are all amps that I think can match well with the HD800.  I would think the Dac1 combined with the Squarewave is likely too much solid stateness for them, but I have never heard that particular combo.

[HeadphoneAddict]

The Apex Pinnacle was quite good with HD800 at the last RMAF as well.  I really enjoy the ZDT with the HD800, and it's a shame they were a limitted run.  The Luxman P-1u sounds quite similar to my ZDT with partial silver transformers, and was excellent with the HD800. 

[HeadphoneAddict]

when this combo is right, it's so, so right.  the opposite is also true.    the SquareWave is actually a bit warm, but it's ruthlessly revealing.  This reminds me of the Dynahi->HP-2 combo,  in a lot of ways.

 

It wasn't too ruthless with the stock PSU, and never ran for long with the S22 I had built for it when the stock one died, so I haven't heard this side of the Sq Wave XL before.  It always seemed to smooth out the sound and make bright phones more tolerable with it's smooth and buttery warmth.

[Dusty Chalk]

If it's just a slight uptip in the treble, won't you consider just a smidge of EQ?

[Dusty Chalk]

Yeah, I can see how that'd be the case.  I do most of my listening in the near field, and (in your cases) it's could be the exact same amount of treble, but for some reason when it's diffuse (which even 10 feet will do), it's more tolerable.

[postjack]

Thanks everyone for the comments regarding the B22. All my headphones have been on the lush side for a while, but now when I want lush/fun I just listen to the Rega RS1s (speakers not grados) which sound awesome just sitting on my desk. The ESL63s are not in use at the moment, so I want something that gets at the heart of the recording, for better or worse, as Reks describes it.

 

I'm loathe to give up my beta22 after all naaman did to build it, and Fitz did to fix it, so I'll probably give the HD800 a whirl with it for a while. Owning a Headamp GS-X/GS-1 has always been a dream of mine though.

 

start my new gig in august, and will be making more money than I've ever made (still not a lot!) so hopefully I can save up for a while for the cans.

[The Monkey]

Posty, sorry I missed this: have you tried the 800 with the B22 yet?

[postjack]

Posty, sorry I missed this: have you tried the 800 with the B22 yet?

 

no I have not. the only time I heard the HD800 was at Canjam LA, out of whatever Tyll had them hooked up to, I can't remember. Headamp Desktop I'm guessing.

[spritzer]

I'd certainly try it. 

 

...the L2 appears to be SE only, though... ?

 

It is a single ended triode amp so it is not balanced but it will accept a balanced input.  Been looking at the interior shots... 

[The Monkey]

I think that HD800 B22 pairing could end up sounding good.

[postjack]

I think that HD800 B22 pairing could end up sounding good.

My source is rega analog and rega digital, which tend to be warm (apollo warmer than the p3/24 & exact 2, interestingly) so it might work out well.

[Torpedo]

I could live with that hadn't other amps, but some of my friends who listened to the combo (who by the way love the O2) found the HD800-B22 pairing unlistenable. To each one his own, I guess.

[spritzer]

There is always the option to mess with the electrical damping.  I could always appreciate the HD800's ability but it was never a headphone I'd use unless I was too lazy to fire up any of the electrostatic amps.  Just too bright and edgy with less than stellar material.  Add some resistors and they loose almost all of the weak points yet retain the positive aspects. 

[tjkurita]

As much as I'd love one of his amps, seems unlikely that he'll have a balanced one in that price range.  who knows what'll happen, though.

Hey Reks, is there any particular reason why you require balanced connections?  Are you recabling your HD800, or just putting XLRs or TRSs at the end of a single ended cable (in which case, wouldn't that just make it a single ended cable with an adaptor?  If I remember right, those DNA amps are single ended designs, not truly balanced.  Is there a line of ECP amps that are "truly" balanced all the way through?  I've never completely understood the difference between truly balanced and single ended.  Perhaps someone could explain the appeal and the differences.  

[tjkurita]

The HD-800 cable is 4 conductor.  

So it can be balanced very easily, I gues?  Just by reterminating in the correct way?  Looking into balanced drive, I see that impedance matching is very important...  It's interesting.  Seems like there are a lot of benefits.  Ground loop prevention, less interference, better dynamic range... 

[Dusty Chalk]

Hey Reks, is there any particular reason why you require balanced connections?  Are you recabling your HD800, or just putting XLRs or TRSs at the end of a single ended cable (in which case, wouldn't that just make it a single ended cable with an adaptor?  If I remember right, those DNA amps are single ended designs, not truly balanced.  Is there a line of ECP amps that are "truly" balanced all the way through?  I've never completely understood the difference between truly balanced and single ended.  Perhaps someone could explain the appeal and the differences.  

I'm probably not the best person to have this discussion, but truly balanced as I was taught is +/-/ground, I.E. you have two sides of opposite polarity, both amplifying relative to ground. 

[tjkurita]

I'm probably not the best person to have this discussion, but truly balanced as I was taught is +/-/ground, I.E. you have two sides of opposite polarity, both amplifying relative to ground. 

Yes.  This was my limited understanding as well.  That would mean double the amplification.  Or, at least, two signals plus ground.

[Dusty Chalk]

Four signals plus ground...or two signals plus ground per channel.

 

I mean, unless you're a hard core monaural apologist.

 

[spritzer]

For balanced signal transmission you don't need ground, it's just the difference between the "+" and the "-" (remember this is AC so not actually + and -) that matters.  The ground is there as a shield but that's it. 

 

For balanced transducers this is more complicated or rather, the signal transmission is mixed in so that pretty much anything with a XLR socket is balanced.  Take something like a spud amp for instance.  It has one triode per channel so only one phase could be amplified but with input and output transformers that are center tapped it can have balanced input and output.  Now the question, is it really balanced and do you get the same benefits as with something like the SuSy Dynahi?  I'd like to see some better separation of this but I doubt it could be done and I doubt the noobs would understand even a tiny bit of it. 

 

This is also why I want to make an electrostatic spud amp as they have to be balanced to function... 

[Dusty Chalk]

For balanced signal transmission you don't need ground, it's just the difference between the "+" and the "-" (remember this is AC so not actually + and -) that matters.  The ground is there as a shield but that's it. 

What about common-mode rejection?  The strict definition requires that the two channels have the same impedance to ground, so even if there's only two channels in transmission, there's still an implied 3rd channel by having both channels of both sides relative to ground.

 

EDIT:  Or in the case of typical dynamic headphones, where there's no ground on the non-amplifying end, you still need to balance the amplifier end to be able to call the transmission balanced and receive the benefit of common-mode rejection.

[spritzer]

Well the common mode rejection applies with no ground as well.  It's the difference between the two conductors that matters so any interference will be applied in equal amounts to both conductors and thus cancelled out.    

[Tyll Hertsens]

Mostly when you do have a ground available, you should attach it to the shield of the cable on the amp end only. This is often called a "drain wire", and allows the shield to work better to isolate the signal from RF interference.