Starting to really hate that other site...

[TMoney]

Wow. Just wow. Read this thread over on the other site: http://www.head-fi.org/t/593135/returning-to-headfi-electrostatic-rig-suggestions/45

My goodness. I don't know why I even bother to read things over there anymore.

Spritzer, I don't always agree with your tastes in sound but I think there you were 100% in the right there. It's a shame the thread got closed down because I'd love to blast Jude for his posts.

Bullcrap products and posts can and should be called out for what they are. It's a disservice to newer members to let some of the nut-cases over there run wild. It's sad to see some of those people taken seriously when its pretty clear they do not have a clue what they are talking about. People over the other site don't seem to understand that there are such a thing as bad amp designs, bad products, and hence bad sound.

I 100% agree that people unfamiliar with a transducer (like the 009) who listen to it on unfamiliar gear for 5-10 minutes at a meet rarely have worthwhile opinions. I don't even understand how that point can be argued?

I usually appreciate Jude for trying to be a nice guy but boy does he come off as being clueless here. For as much time as he spends with this stuff you think he'd bother to learn a thing or two about electronics and amp design. A Woo WES doesn't care what box its in or whether it was made by Woo or not.

Also, what is up with NoNoNoNoNoNo? Guy seems like a total d-bag.

[n_maher]

Life is short don't read the website if you don't like it...

[Wmcmanus]

x2

[rhythmdevils]

I agree with Jude.

[spritzer]

That thread is a gigantic clusterfuck and I just love NoNoNoNoNoNo calling me a child when I was just replying to Jude's accusations. Sure, I'm a hothead but If Jude had any clue then he'd ran for the hills when the sociopath (NoNoNoNoNoNo) agrees with him. I guess I don't have any idea how the Exstata sounds since my own version was better from day one (better PSU and higher rail voltages with hand selected, non Fairchild, transistors)...?

What many people don't know is that Jude's utter lack of understanding amps and their design caused Single Power to claim a bit more victims back in the day. I posted a thread a full year before I got my ES-1, stating serious concerns about the ES amps based on internal pics and talking with some of the owners. I pointed to all the known issues, single filament supply burning up the tubes, parts way out of spec, improper bias supplies etc. Same day Jude stepped in and removed the thread when Mikhail complained that these were all lies. Mikhail claimed he had done extensive alterations to the SRX circuit and Jude bought it all. I offered to send all my data to impartial designers and have them look at it (Pete and Ti were a couple of names thrown about) but no, change a few resistors and it's a whole new circuit and minor details such as 400V caps seeing 800V isn't a problem so the thread was never allowed back out in the open. I didn't have a ES-1 here to "verify my findings" so things were allowed to continue as if nothing had happened. We all know how that one turned out...

My point about the SR-009 is that it's a very impressive transducer, certainly one of the best in the world so if one isn't used to this level of clarity and lack of distortion, your findings will be of utter amazement. Same deal with the HE90, plenty of people have been mesmerized by it and never spotted the obvious flaws. Doesn't really matter what amp you use them with, the HEV90 is certainly no feat of engineering and the early examples are just piss poor IMO.

As for HF, I really don't know why I bother to go there any more. Most of the PM's I get I never bother to reply to and most threads are just the same useless crap they were years ago.

[cobra_kai]

I think we all know that a prettier box guarantees an amp to sound better

What I find more disturbing is that Ray Samuels seems to have no clue what it means for an amp to be operating in class A. Apparently you are in class A if your amp can swing a lot of voltage and source a lot of current.

[Hopstretch]

Any thread with Jude, Ray and NoNoNoNoNoNo all mixed up in it could pretty much serve as the North American qualifying round for the world championship of Being A Fuckin' Knob.

[Aimless1]

Yep. The trifecta for fail.

[morphsci]

....

Also, what is up with NoNoNoNoNoNo? Guy seems like a total d-bag.

Well you pretty much nailed it right there.

I agree with Jude.

In this case Jude is pretty much painting himself as clueless. His argument really has no logic to it. If instead he argued that the circuits of Spritzer's WES and the Woo WES might not be the same since they are not based upon a single schematic would at least be somewhat tenable. To argue that it is not a WES because it is not built by Woo. Yeah not so much. But in reality, I could give a shit.

[RudeWolf]

One must also keep in mind that even if Spritzer would have had an authentic Woo WES it still wouldn't be the unit Jude heard. Also he was wrong because he said unhappy things.

[recstar24]

Ray has perfected the argument of "you can only evaluate the sound of something if you have heard it and owned it". Most "audiophiles" look at hifi as a purely subjective thing, which is the result of the lack of basic electronics knowledge of most people in general, and that is scary. It's clear in spritzers explanation that his WES is close enough, if not better than, an actual woo wes. Basic knowledge of how a tube or transistor works, specifically how a CCS is almost always a much better load option for a tube than a resistor, makes that apparent, there really isn't any subjectivity to the idea that a CCS allows a tube to operate under more ideal parameters than a resistor, which was the point trying to be made. However Jude, like many others, view hifi purely subjectively, but ideally i feel some background electronic knowledge really does help the subjective experience, and unless someone is willing to read a book or two and become more objective in their listening evaluations it is all a moot point.

[roadtonowhere08]

Ah, Head-fi. Home of the thread locks. Although in this case, it was necessary to prevent Jude from getting his ass further handed to him by spritzer.

[Maxvla]

That thread did go downhill rather quickly. Jude had the basis for some decent points, but he was off base more than on and eventually had to lock it to save himself. I never knew til now just how much technical knowledge he had (or rather doesn't have) until seeing that series of posts.

Not knowing all the tech stuff myself I couldn't say at the time if Spritzer was right or not, but I'm more inclined to believe the guy who rebuilds electrostatic stuff all the time than a figurehead who manages a website and video series.

Recstar, any suggestions on those 'book or two'? Total novice here I did try to start reading some of the pdfs on Millett's website a while ago. Guess I could head back there.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Maxvla

[deepak]

That thread did go downhill rather quickly. Jude had the basis for some decent points, but he was off base more than on and eventually had to lock it to save himself. I never knew til now just how much technical knowledge he had (or rather doesn't have) until seeing that series of posts.

Not knowing all the tech stuff myself I couldn't say at the time if Spritzer was right or not, but I'm more inclined to believe the guy who rebuilds electrostatic stuff all the time than a figurehead who manages a website and video series.

Recstar, any suggestions on those 'book or two'? Total novice here I did try to start reading some of the pdfs on Millett's website a while ago. Guess I could head back there.

Morgan Jones Valve Amplifier books (I think it is Valve Amplifiers that has the gentle introduction to Ohm's Law, Thevenin's, etc). Also many of the PDFs on PassDIY.com are newbie friendly.

[catscratch]

Recstar, any suggestions on those 'book or two'? Total novice here I did try to start reading some of the pdfs on Millett's website a while ago. Guess I could head back there.

Also wanted to ask this. I have no background in electrical engineering and audio whatsoever but would like to learn, I just don't know where to begin.

[Edit: thanks deepak]

Edited February 5, 2012 by catscratch

[recstar24]

Even something like a Robert Harley's complete guide to high end audio is better than nothing. It's geared to the layman, very easy to understand, and touches on a variety of topics.

All the Nelson pass articles are great too.

I like dougs parafeed article as it really breaks down how a tube operates in a simple, clear, and concise manner - it was also Doug in his modding of my moth si2a3/45 h that really showed me how drastic the effect is of how a tube is loaded, in that case he CCS loaded the input tube and LED biased it which really improved things (as well as showing how limited even the best SET circuits are).

[dsavitsk]

Also wanted to ask this. I have no background in electrical engineering and audio whatsoever but would like to learn, I just don't know where to begin.

I think the best way to learn is to get your hands dirty. It is hard to just read about circuits in the abstract. To that end, Tangent's CMoy article is a pretty good starting point.

http://tangentsoft.net/audio/cmoy-tutorial/

This is tube specific, but it was written for teaching people who did not know anything about electronics http://electriciantraining.tpub.com/14178/

And, this thread has links to lots of similar articles: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/38278-line-tube-learning-newbies.html

I like dougs parafeed article as it really breaks down how a tube operates in a simple, clear, and concise manner

Linked from here: http://www.ecpaudio.com/

[kevin gilmore]

Spritzer as usual is right on the money. From extremely high resolution pictures that were provided to

us the following was generated, and has been verified by an owner of the amplifier.

This is an early version before the addition of the balanced input.

There is one error in the schematic, and the inductor has been measured at 25 millihenrys by

an inductance meter of unknown accuracy.

http://gilmore.chem....wooaudiowes.pdf

And that is the issue with this amp. Replace the pair of inductors with a larger tapped inductor

and then the thing turns into push pull and the peak to peak voltages actually are what

they should have been in the first place.

The power supply is a different issue entirely.

And for those that have not seen it...

http://gilmore.chem.northwestern.edu/darkstar.pdf

The .5 ohm current limit resistor limits the thing to a maximum of 1 ampere...

High resolution pictures supplied by our friend skylab...

Edited February 6, 2012 by kevin gilmore

[cobra_kai]

Haha love the copyright on the darkstar schematic. You should post the information on the current limit over at the other place... some people might start crying when they find out their amp can't put 150 watts into their HE-6. Of course someone will probably ask you if you have heard a RAY SAMUELS da(o)rkstar and if not then you can't possibly know its output power. Although if they took the time to read the data sheet it is spelled out clear as day in there once you know the component values.

[The Monkey]

Instead of coming here to complain about other sites, I suggest complaining on the other sites themselves.

[roadtonowhere08]

Instead of coming here to complain about other sites, I suggest complaining on the other sites themselves.

I am not advocating complaining about that place here at all; however, to follow your advice, one might as well talk to a tree stump. Any time I have ever complained in the past, I got a nice helping of "tough shit". Others might have had more success, but all one has to do is browse the site to know which side of the bread is buttered. That site is all about marketing now.

[TruBrew]

I just read through the thread. It started a bit slow, but ended with a bang. I thought Jude's argument was rather repedative, and was flimsy to start with. I did however find his continual use of the phrase "Woo Audio WES" entertaining.

It turns out that circuit design is not the only subject he has deficient knowledge of. I found his mischaracterisation of pit bulls to be offensive. I have worked with animals, and own one. They are amazing dogs. Their poor portrayal in the media is unfounded. Sorry for getting off topic but offhand comments like that really annoy me. That is how harmful stereotypes are disseminated.

[naamanf]

I just read through the thread. It started a bit slow, but ended with a bang. I thought Jude's argument was rather repedative, and was flimsy to start with. I did however find his continual use of the phrase "Woo Audio WES" entertaining.

It turns out that circuit design is not the only subject he has deficient knowledge of. I found his mischaracterisation of pit bulls to be offensive. I have worked with animals, and own one. They are amazing dogs. Their poor portrayal in the media is unfounded. Sorry for getting off topic but offhand comments like that really annoy me. That is how harmful stereotypes are disseminated.

Blah blah blah. I really could give a shit about Jude's knowledge, or lack thereof. What matters to me is how much he looks like Lloyd from Entourage. I make sure I yell "Lloyd" like Ari as loud as I can when ever I see him.

[TruBrew]

You just need to get a shot of Jude answering the phone is a suit.

[bhjazz]

Jude tries the "nice guy" thing, but he's so fearful of telling vendors that their products stink. For the power he holds, he should stand a little taller. Money talks, I guess.

Edited February 6, 2012 by bhjazz